Revert class design to MoP

Is anyone really talking about it on a fundamental level though? From what I gather including myself, what people are asking for is that their class plays similar to if not the same as it did in MoP.

The fundamental gameplay hasn’t changed as you say, but what has changed is the spells and abilities you have to play with. What MoP had that Legion and BfA lacks is the situational abilities. An ultra optimized 1 2 3 rotation is excellent in predictable encounters, but WoW has more than predictable encounters. Sometimes you have to do something unexpected and in MoP you had a toolkit that allowed you to adapt more to those unexpected things. In Legion and BfA all you have is your basic rotation and that doesn’t make for a lot of interesting or dynamic moments in my opinion.

But like I said to Drae, that’s a smaller order than reverting the entire design back 7 years.

If Druids just want Symbiosis back, then just give it to them. You don’t need to revert back to MoP for that.
If Warlocks want Kiljaeden’s Cunning, then Blizzard can just add it back into the game.

Like, if you say: “I want Blizzard to revert class design to MoP!”, then there’s obviously an underlying request there, i.e.: “…because I want to have Lightwell again as a Holy Priest!” The latter is a lot simpler in terms of feedback.
And if you have some particular requests for Warlock, then you should just request those directly. That’s simpler and more straight-forward than asking for a 7 year timetravel with so many design complications that it’s difficult to even imagine.

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I want Blizzard to revert class design to MoP, because then I would have actual defensives and forms of sustain again.

Can’t you ask for that without reverting to MoP? :upside_down_face:

That’s fair, I guess we just interpreted the post differently. I think it’s splitting hairs a little bit, but I see your point.

Maybe not the exact same, there were things in mop that annoyed the piss out of me (instant feral clones f.ex.), but the overall feel and overarching design is what I want. Think of WoD, but less pruned/streamlined/whatevered.

The fact that they just threw the functional core class design away from MoP is the stinging point. For me at least.

Nope, it must all be reverted to MoP so I can have these 2 things

No. Not “improves”. No. “Improves”, like the cake, is a lie.

Is there ANYBODY who has played in three expansions who still believes they make class changes to improve the game?

This one gets up my nose, because when I was new I assumed that the devs made changes to improve the game. I was a naïve idiot. They don’t. They make changes just to change the game. They make changes to roll the classes around the wheel, from bottom to top and back again (“No class rules forever, my son” “To the ground, baby”). Personally, I wouldn’t discount the idea that they make changes just because they themselves want to try out their own new ideas for their own egos; there’s a lot of that in software development.

Even more significant, they have explained since WoD how they have systematically simplified the basis of classes to make their own jobs easier. (“Base” and disposable “toppings”.) No, I don’t accept that as a mischaracterisation. As a dev in a very different field myself, I even sympathise and approve of the underlying intent. As a system gets older, and grows and accretes, the maintenance surface increases, every change potentially affects more and more things, and the number of ways to screw up multiplies. Preventing that from becoming overwhelming is necessary. Ion has explained how they spread the changes over two to three expansions to limit the perception.

They make changes for these reasons, in the alpha, and then try to clean up the screwed-up mess that results before it goes live. THAT’s what happens. And sometimes they don’t clean up the screwed-up mess, and sometimes the screw-up is too fundamental, too structural, to be fixed. And so a class or two is told “We’ll try to do something about it (band-aid, or buff) in the next patch” or “Sorry, we’ll fix it next expansion”. BfA had a wider problem. They thought they could fix all specs with Azerite Traits. They couldn’t. Cluster-fail.

From reading and watching, I think they may genuinely have changed classes just to improve them up to early Wrath, but I wasn’t there. Definitely not after Wrath. As the great John Gall said: Intrasystem goals come first, and so now we see them dominate the layout of a game increasingly engineered for game designers rather than players.

End of rant.

Important question. I have wished for an expansion where we discover that since we went through the Red Portal, we actually discover that we stayed in the Alternate Timeline, and we wake up back in Shrine, ready to go forward from there, with a knowledge of the mistakes made since Mists. But that ain’t gonna happen.

Here’s what I do know: Even if they were trying to improve the game, I don’t trust this team to make enjoyable classes on their own. Maybe some of them once knew, but have forgotten how to let go of their own learned prejudices and fears. Honestly, I would prefer to see them recapitulate the evolution of classes from Wrath through Mists, but with the improved tools they have now, than start on yet another desperate and unproven odyssey through Yet Another Universe of Bad Ideas That They Can’t Make Work.

I’m no kind of theorycrafter or expert. I maxed all classes in Legion, but I play maybe 5 specs well enough to avoid comedy. But here’s what I do know: I have seen myself enjoy all my classes less and less on a second-to second basis after Mists. Yes, the Legion buffs somewhat made up for it for a while, but basically, in Mists I could be happy pulling a field full of wolves, because my class was fun enough on its own to engage me, and that basic fun has just continually drained out of every single GCD. And without that key ingredient of a fun class, it doesn’t matter how many swirlies or sparklies they add. As the Vogon guard said about his job: the hours aren’t bad, but the seconds are pretty awful.

That’s not what I meant. :grin:

What I meant was that the playerbase has the expectation “that Blizzard improves and does something new with the class design for each expansion.”

I guess the use of the phrase “There’s an expectation […]” is too unclear. Sorry.

But players definitely expect this. Everyone sees fault with the class and spec they play and expect that Blizzard fixes it. And a new expansion is definitely the time when the core design issues are meant to be dealt with. I think every Beta has proved this to be true. People have big expectations for what Blizzard have to deliver. I certainly remember Shadow Priests who’s “fix” was delayed until patch 8.1 alongside Elemental Shamans. People were upset about that. The expectation is definitely that Blizzard improves on the class design going into a new expansion.

And there’s obviously an expectation that they also add to it. Both in terms of temporary additions (Artifact Weapon, Azerite Armor, etc.) and permanent additions (unpruning).

Whether Blizzard delivers all of this to the playerbase’s expectations is another matter entirely. There are some high expectations, that’s for sure, and the reception is never without criticism. I do think some specs tend to come out of a Beta with a lot of praise…and others not so much. :smirk:

We are somewhat off the substantive point here, but let’s roll with what exactly you meant rather than what happens for a moment.

I don’t believe that “There’s an expectation that Blizzard improves …the class design for each expansion.”

I believe that players at the end of expansion, especially now that the “cyclical playerbase” game design is so established, ate looking for something different.

I believe that players whose class design has failed are looking for their specific ouchies to be fixed.

But I don’t believe that anyone who has seen changes over a couple of expansions - especially the last few - expects that classes will in general improve.

Okay. I don’t really agree with any of that, so agree to disagree. :slightly_smiling_face:

Agreed! :slight_smile:

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