The thing I find a bit odd this season is that we have M+ scaling + Fortified + Tyrannical on 10s and at 12s we also get the new +20% on everything.
It’s basically just scaling put onto scaling put onto scaling put onto scaling. A bit… weird…
At that point, there simply is no need for affixes at all. Could aswell just remove all affixes from 12s and scale keylevels accordingly higher. Same effect.
I was about to say that. I like the new kiss/curse affixes. I like that there are no more “push weeks”. Just keys.
But this scaling over scaling as you mention simply adds walls of difficulty that should not be there. M+ scaling should be smoother.
I mean… the difference between a 9 and a 10 is staggering ! And from what I read the jump from 11 to 12 is even more massive than that !
I agree, yes. Affixes that benefit you for playing well instead of just punishing you if ignored feel really good and provide min/max potential.
100%. It’s great that “well, let’s just do vault and play alts this week”-weeks are a thing of the past. Consistency is great now.
Yes, that’s another issue. The jump from 9s to 10s already is decently big because natural M+ scaling isn’t linear and getting Tyrannical/Fortified on top of the other makes the dungeon run even longer. The jump from 11 to 12, I imagine, must be rather huge due to the natural M+ scaling + 20% affix.
The thing with this also is that affixes, with this system, are just redundant. Why even have them when all they do is to increase the dmg/hp scaling? M+ key levels already do that naturally. How’s a scaling affix a valuable addition to that?
In previous expansions this could be overlooked because we just had one of those. Either Tyrannical or Fortified in a week and the +20% thing just didn’t exist at all. Alongside one of those, we had 2 other affixes, like Bolstering, Sanguine, Afflicted (or all the other BS everybody hated, lol) but we had affixes that do things other than just pure scaling.
Now we have 4 affixes basically. One that scales enemies, another one that scales enemeis, a third one that … well… scales enemies and a fourth one that’s just passively there and nobody actively notices (-15sec on death)
Wrote my reply to the previous quote already before I’ve read this… but seems like we’re on the same page here 
There’s this little gray area between ‘perfect balance’ and ‘DK > Monk+Priest+Demon Hunter+Warrior’
It’ll never be balanced and the reason they’re not getting invited is 99% because they’re DPS. Healer disproportion is far bigger and yet we can get into any key we want.
Ofc any tiny imbalance is amplified when you’re a DPS but at this point banning those moronic tier lists would make more change than actually balancing classes.
This makes no sense. Frost and Unholy are DPS too and they have more representation than 4 classes put together.
This isn’t tiny. It’s one class being more popular than 4 other classes combined. In any competitive game this would be laughably bad.
Look. You should always check where you get that data from. Reddit is not the most appropriate place to do that. WHAT sample space is important here.
For example : If I were to look at the spec representation in keys 12 and up. Literally 33% DK 33% Aug and 33% mage. 0% of everything else.
But if I look at representation on keys 10 and up (Raider IO data)
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-1/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=10:maxMythicLevel=99
What I see is that Warrior (6.9%) + SP (3.2%) + Monk (3.6%) + DH (4.2%) is > than DK (9.6%). And funny enough… Ret pala (10%) > DK (9.6%).
And if I look at keys 7 and above :
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-1/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=7:maxMythicLevel=99
Turns out Rets over-shine everyone else. And rets are nowhere near from being meta.
And if I look across all key levels :
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-1/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=2:maxMythicLevel=99
Turns out Warrior + Ret > ALL combined. And none of the two are meta.
What do we do now ? Do you want to talk about DKs or Rets ? Which one is meta ?
I mean… I dont want to be a jerk. But if you are going to talk about meta, atleast (A) quote reliable data. We will NEVER know the real player count (only blizz does). But Raider IO is the best we got. And (B) if you discuss the meta, you first have to understand the meta.
Why would you look at 12 and up? That’s way too niche.
Actually you don’t. That’s the beauty of statistics, they show you black on white that certain classes are more popular, and they’re not more popular because they’re worse.
You’re just stubborn and refuse to admit you’re wrong.
If you are talking about separating m+ from raiding and making it like PVP where you can slowly progress to certain Rewards i like it.
I like pvp for this reason there is a mount and elite set and also weapon illusion.
That is what i like i actually enjoy pvp right now more than PVE cause dungeons are boring and not fun at all.
Rewards are same since they introduced first KSM mount in BFA s4
and that is also boring.
Would be cool changing rewards a little.
Because the “meta” is defined on what is the most “optimal” at the highest of keys. THAT is the literal definition of meta ! 
Logic sais that if the pros will use EVERY advantage there is to have in the book, one of THE most significant ones is Comp. That is LITERALLY how the meta is defined.
So OF COURSE the higher the key, the more restrictive the meta becomes. And at the highest of keys (12+) there is literally nothing else BUT the 5 most optimal classes.
What actually MATTERS is how far does this “optimal comp” tricke down to lower keys. In other words… how low a key level does this “meta” become relevant ? And most importantly: WHY ?
So. You do the exercise I did. You look at the “meta” and see how far it goes. And you clearly see that in 2 keylevels it sort of evens out, and you are even over-represented by specs that are NOT meta.
So its good news IMO.
And if that was not the case, such as DK tanks in S3 and S4 of DF then you have to ask yourself WHY. We knew why in the case of DK tanks. And once we know why, we can start to ask for specific balancing solutions. Like removing double sigil fom DKs.
I am not stubborn. I am not wrong.
Ask yourself. WHY did you specifically complain about DKs ? Why not about Rets ? Well MAYBE because DKs are meta.
But data shows that bellow the top key levels. Rets and warriors are the majority. MORE than frost DKs by a mile.
SO ? Why complain about DKs again ???
That’s not really what meta means. Meta is ‘most effective tactic available’. But that doesn’t mean there’s only one meta representing the highest 0.001%. There’s a meta for various skill levels.
If you play League of Legends, the meta for Silver and Challenger are different.
It’s not relevant in the way you think it is. Any 3DPS 1 Tank 1 Healer comp can clear a +10 with proper coordination. What the meta means is how EASY it is to do that. Because 3 Shadow Priests are going to have a way harder time than Aug/DK/Mage at the same skill level.
THat’s not true. You’re comparing Ret Pala to Frost. DK also has like 2% under Unholy.
And I don’t get why you keep saying Ret isn’t that good, they have damage more or less equal to Havoc while being far easier to play and having better utility.
But we arent playing League of Legends are we ? We are playing WoW…
(A) YES that is what the meta is defined as.
(B) you are correct. This season is an exception to the rule. There ARE 2 different “optimal comps” for 12+ and above and 11+ and bellow.
But for the past 15 years that M+ has existed, there was only 1 meta. And people make the mistake of not thinking WHY the meta is meta, and just copy paste tier lists.
And they generally fail to do so in WW S1 as well. And if YOU would have done that job, you would have figured out that frost DK, Aug, and Mage (specifically Arcane Mage) are the optimal comp in HIGH keys ONLY.
But what did YOU do ? You literally took a graph. You did not even bother looking at “what level is this”. And pasted it here as is and started to complain about DKs.
So. As you might understand, if you make a graph of keys 11 and above, you WILL see a major representation of DKs. But if you make a graph of keys 7 to 11, you see that DK representation drops.
But that was NOT your observation. You literally came and blanket blamed that DKs have more representation than 4 DDs combined.
So I digress. THINK before you talk.
Data shows that the “meta” in low keys are warriors and rets. LITERALLY.
So ? Were talking about a 2% difference here. So between 10 and 12%.
Compare that to DHs that sit on 4.2%. Or monks with 3.9%.
Look. If you really want to see a “global picture” of class representation, here is the best available data to asses the evolution of the “meta”:
https://mythicstats.com/meta
In the Right you have the “gini score”. And basically : If its green its good. If its red, its BAD.
Here you have DF version so you can see how this graph would look like.
https://mythicstats.com/meta?expansion=df
Note on the situation in S2 of DF.
Or Shadowlands :
https://mythicstats.com/meta?expansion=sl
Note S3 and S4 with locks and Survi hunters.
THOSE are examples of a truly oppressive meta.
But if you want to see a truly gloriously well balanced class diversity check out S1 of DF. That was the best it has ever been in years. And you can see youself and compare that with SL and BFA data.
added your idea in the first topic
If your DNA was 2% different you’d be a dolphin.
Doubt it. It’s more like 10s are easier than 12s so you can afford to NOT have the best comp, so when you’re waiting for that Frost DK and you can’t find him or his rating is too low you can afford to take a Shadow instead. The higher you go, the less likely it is for that to happen as timers and DPS/utility requirements are tighter.
Source?
What do you base this on? How can a comp be the best in 12s but not in 11s?
Right back at you.
The data doesn’t show you the ‘meta’ you absolute goof, it shows you the popularity of classes at a certain RIO/key level. What, you think that a certain comp suddenly becomes significantly worse or better when you switch between +5 and +6 ? How can you possibly talk about not understanding terms and numbers when you unironically have no idea what you’re looking at?
i disagree with this, tyranical + fortified is fine on 10, the global balance is fine, or just remove both ? i’m not sure as it permit lower than 10 to have “easier” keys
But we aren’t talking about DNA are we ? We are talking about WoW.
In what way ? 
In the fact that you don’t have a kiss/curse affix + mobs hit 20% more ? That is such a massive jump in damage, that your tank simply cannot survive big pulls.
So what do you do ? You take smaller pulls. And now what you want is a comp that can maximize ST and cleave DPS.
In lower keys, damage is not an issue. Your tank dosent get mauled by whites beyond what the healer can deal with. Therefore, you want blanket AoE specs. Like Rets.
Isent that a good enough reason ?
I quoted the source. You look at raider IO top keys at that level and its basically ALL you see. With few exceptions.
Explained above. Because at a 12 you loose the kiss/curse and things hit you for 20% more. And have 20% more HP. Therefore, you cant pull as big, or as often as you can in an 11.
I think I have explained it clearly enough. You seem to go around in circles looking for that “gotcha” moment. But you wont find it.
But here is the reality of the situation: You posted a random graph you found on reddit. With no context. No source for the Metadata. NOTHING. And drew some conclusions.
I have posted reliable data, from a reputable source (not “Reddit”), and explanations.
And you continue to somehow try to rebute my claims with what data ?
REMEMBER :
Your original claim was meta sucks DKs are the majority of DD and that is unfair.
I show you data that SHOWS YOU that Rets and Warriors are the ACTUAL majority of DD population.
And instead of retracting your comments, you attempt to debunk mine. With nothing but words and baseless arguments.
But I get you. If you admit that Rets and Warriors are the majority and you made a mistake in assuming DKs were, then… because they are NOT the meta DDs then you got a problem.
Who do you blame ? The meta… or YOU ?
For what exactly? I’m at 2200 RIO. And I would absolutely be higher if I played a class that was more in demand, because right now I need to wait ages to find groups and get declined from groups where the host is hundreds of points below me, just because he wants the OP specs or lust.
Maybe we should. Or Chromosomes. I feel it’s one of those two.
Mage and Shaman are top tier in both AoE and ST so who cares.
In lower keys min maxing isn’t as important. It has nothing to do with some lower key meta.
You misunderstand, AGAIN. I’m asking you where you got the idea that if a class is more popular in say 7+ keys that means it’s better for it.
I mean your RIO stats don’t tell a much different story, DPS Shaman/DKs/Evokers/Mages are clearly preferred over the others which means change is in order.
It’s not my fault you’re making zero sense.
I dont get all the hate against M+. It IS CHALLENGING its supposed to be so. Thats the whole Point.
If you dont Like it. Dont play it. And up to +7 is freeloot even if you dont play properly. So you can get your Champ and Hero Gear.
yea, it´s already reinforcing the Augmentation Meta as most tanks cannot live a 12 without an Aug atm. It´s really zero lessons learned from S2 onwards. They need to stop scaling the dmg at some point or really lower the dmg scaling in keys, as it´s really bad as an experience if survaivability is limiting you in key-level and not dps/timer.
Also i really do not understand why on one side they want to have gear make content easier over time, but then hide the gear behind such a high hurdle like mythic raid and M +10 to begin with, so this is getting easier for exactly noone ever right now. It´s just really f** up this season, especially coming from S4 where i felt like it was pretty perfect as an M+ player. Still took till the end of season to aquire BIS, but it was realistic for the first time ever without mythic raiding.
i have no hate, as i said i’m in the top 1% players in MM+, which means i like it. I do thousands of key per year in HL mode. Your text is useless. What i expect it’s a challenging thing BUT balanced and fair. You seems to don’t have the level, or being a streamer with a team, meaning you are not in the top 5% MM+ players or the top 1% players facing real issues.