Shadowlands did not do any damage to the setting

The biggest sins both gameplay and lore ever had to go through in the past was infact not the Jailer show.

It was TBC and BFA who arguably ruined the IP beyond repair and its effects are still being felt to this day indeed.

TBC killed alot of named characters that weren’t evil by the time we last saw them.

BFA deleted the Horde alltogetehr and also removed too many big names without proper compensation. So if you want to be actually angry to something there your ire is directed at the wrong release.

Cheers.

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Or it was when they made garrosh a villain.

Garrosh was always a villain but Blizzard always used named characters from older lore whenever they run out of ideas for new enemies that was their capital sin in the story. And we still feel it to this day.

I would not say always .but yeah the horde has got much bad treatment In terms of story and lore .

When people complained that alliance story was better then horde .blizzard nuked the whole story and now we have bad story overall .

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See I know the title is rage bait
I don’t disagree that TBC was not a golden standard of writing, in some regards its worse than some of the lows of other expansions
but your title stinks and you are wrong.

:dracthyr_uwu:

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No Shadowlands was a great expansion.

Its your individual right as a free thinking, autonomous person protected under the basic rights granted to us by god or man to voice our opinions.
And as an indepedent free willed person you are free and entitled to your opinion.

Even though its wrong.

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Shadowlands exist singled out on its own with barley anything connected to Azeroth. It is a different dimension we will never have to visit again in the future. SUre we got some Warcraft 3 cameos and a new burrowed power system BUT all in all its pretty much forgettable since the Jailer didn’t survive long enough to do anything important to the rest of the world.

But TBC and BFA activley harmed the story telling and the factions. And I doubt the Horde at large can ever recover from it. Especially BFA since it totally wrecked our leader cast and put in replacements with zero lore.

I don’t understand the hate for Shadowlands. Putting the Jailer aside, who was awful, but not as bad as that rock dragon who I have forgotten about already. Shadowlands was an awesome expansion.

Some of the best M+ Dungeons. One of the best Zones in WoW, Maldraxxus (also the worst Ardenweald), and thematically it feels more like WoW than we have had since.

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Ardenweald rated in polls as the best zone in Wow pretty consistently - why did you hate it:)

I will take the rage bait because I am board at work.
Without touching on the god awful writing of the expansion:

Shadowlands did a lot of damage to the setting.

  • It reduced the mystic of the shadowlands to a handful of realms each of which is a “yikes” moment when looked for more than a minute.
  • it changed dreadlords, they are not demons they are now ventyr who worked with the jailer to corrupt Sargares for the jailers plan.
  • There is only one shadowlands so all versions of all characters from across the multiverse and dimensions (we know exist because we been to them) all float to the shadowlands, how does that work? what if I was a good priest in one alternate reality but a iredeemable warlock in another?
  • The emerald dream is no longer where the ancients go to respawn, thats now handled by a different magical forest in the shadowlands.
  • changed kel’thuzard from a loyal follower (and friend?) of arthas to a loyal follower of the jailer, this entire time.
  • infected the setting with the idea that necromancy is just another color of magic because the light can now bring back undeads.
  • introduced the concept that the titans and all life is sprung from alien robot factories.
  • lessend the impact of the Scourges rampage (suddenly this big world ending threat that has been forshadowed since WotLk was taken care of, in the background off screen)
  • completely ruined any meaning to death, because now you can just visit your lost ones in the shadowlands (yes random npcs from stormwind made it to shadowlands, like old Emma)
  • The Scoruge building style and whole “culture” was lifted from Maldraxxsis, thats where the legion now got the idea to raise undead and where the Lich King got his runblades from as well as his building style and fashion.
  • Kil’jaden didn’t make the crown of domination nor frostmourne those are shadowlands relics.

I am sure I could go on.

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How is that any different from what the Titans are doing to the rest of the unverse? Earthen and Vrykul are robots too.

We can’t, the veil was closed again.

Yes because death magic alone is bigger. the Scourge has not copyrighted the idea of undead.

Yes so? fel magic being seprerated was a thing even in the first volume of Chronicles. Shocker.

Oh I agree that was stupid. Just hamfisting Calia into the plot for no reason.

Arthas will not come back no matter how hard you complain. Hi s story was already over and I am glad Shadowlands didn’t try to justify what he did.

Emerald Dream is the life and summer cycle. Ardenwald is the Winter and recovering. I like this notion alot actually.

Too many fairies.

To go from a zone as amazing as Maldraxxus, to Ardenweald was simply insulting.

Also, those “polls” we probably fairly biased and only asked people who liked Ardenweald (that is, I have never heard of these polls).

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What’s so tragic about Shadowlands to me, is that it arguably had all the potential to have some of the most compelling storytelling the game has ever seen. If we take Zovaal, he remains one of my favorite characters …

… on paper.


The entire point of Zovaal’s character was that he was right for the wrong reasons.

And by the end of the expansion the Eternal Ones agreed. Where they once scorned Zovaal for his ideas [and potentially forced his hand], they were now in agreement.

That is still such a cool friggin’ idea. He was right [in so far as the story is concerned].

The role of the Arbiter and the Jailer should’ve been presented as being two sides of the same coin.

For aeons, Zovaal served with the rest of the Pantheon of Death and his fellow Eternal Ones as the Shadowlands’ Arbiter, judging wayward souls as they passed through the Veil. Over time, he began to question his charge; question the Grand Design of the First Ones itself. The pattern was flawed. Who was he to decide eternity for the souls that passed his keep? And why were they bereft of any agency or say in their fate?

Thus, the Maw should’ve been portrayed not as a single realm within the Shadowlands themselves akin to the others we saw and their Covenants but instead as a contained or mirrored dimension. The role of the Jailer should’ve been the antithesis of the Arbiter, instead deciding not which souls to let in but which souls to let out to join the other realms.

And narratively have him had less and less souls escape penance.

Add to this that Zovaal’s focus and understanding of free will, and write in that he allowed these souls the choice to join him as his Mawsworn. How did he amass so much Anima? How did he amass such a following?

… By offering free will. That’s compelling.


The details surrounding Zovaal’s betrayal and the actions of the Pantheon of Death that led to his exile in the Maw are played up in the campaign as being mysterious, until they’re revealed to be that he simply attacked them and that went against the design. So they locked him away. There’s no presented moral conflict, there’s no depth.

Instead, imagine a campaign in which we are presented with these seemingly honest Eternal Ones but confronted by a confident Zovaal not only predicting their every word but also their efforts to characterize the Jailer to us. A campaign which partially includes us returning time and time again to the Maw and unlocking tidbits of a conversation with Zovaal making us doubt these ‘perfect’ Eternal Ones and their every word.

Because in truth we should’ve from the very start.

We don’t, but we should’ve. And Zovaal should’ve been the one to tell us as much. Mind, everyone eventually agreed Zovaal was right. That is the ace up his sleeve that he could’ve used for us to finally confront the Eternal Ones.

In my opinion, this should’ve included the details of the Domination magic and its presence in Azeroth.

We should’ve slowly come to understand the hand that Zovaal potentially played in major events in our timeline and on our world. Possibly with Zovaal playing coy and neither confirming nor denying his hand in things as well, allowing us to fill in the blanks ourselves. We should’ve felt the implications of his eternity in the Maw and his countless attempts to break out and get a hold outside of the Plane of Death itself.

Similarly, this would’ve played into Sylvanas’ part and hand in this plot.

She should’ve been ‘redeemed’ by seeing the error of her ways due to the Jailer’s methods rather than his infringement upon her own principles. She was inconvenienced, that’s the only reason she turned on him. She didn’t do it for us. And in turn he turned on her for not being willing to ‘serve’. Another infuriating fumble in Zovaal’s presentation, as his whole schtick [as we’ve established] was … free will. Her not being willing to offer free will but instead subjugate should’ve been his reasons for turning on her and finding that a major betrayal.

I’d suggest the same would be true for a character like Uther [and the Forsworn] that should’ve seen a similar resolution. The Jailer wasn’t “deceptively cunning”, he should’ve been asking too much. A far too high price to pay.

It wasn’t justice for those needing a voice anymore, it was sheer vengeance.

Upon the pattern, upon the Grand Design. And that … was a few steps too far.


What this would’ve created is a narrative that not only stayed true to its themes and intentions, but also delivered a compelling villain worthy of the importance he still plays to this day. For better or for worse.

This is what I mean when I say that Zovaal was a character with an extreme amount of potential, and why this version of Zovaal that they technically had on paper but never executed upon remains and likely will remain one of my favorite characters [despite unfulfilled] in all of World of Warcraft . There might come a day when they retcon or change something that pulls us closer to this path, which I wouldn’t be opposed to.

But oh … what could’ve been.

That’s not to say Shadowlands as an expansion wouldn’t have had other issues as well.

Yet the Jailer might not had been the main one quite in the same way …


https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Zovaal

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Eternal_Ones

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Purpose

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All Shadowlands zones were lame. Every single one of them.

Not only did they look dull, they were also very annoying to travel through.

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Maldraxxus was awesome though. It was everything that is WoW all wrapped up into one zone.

Even you can appreciate that.

Has literally nothing to do with what Thuzar said…

Arthas is lame, but changing Kel’Thuzad from loyal friend and ally to manipulating Jailer worker was ridiculous.

Arthas will comeback when Midnight fails and Blizz needs to pull the subs back in.

No he won’t. We perma deleted his soul. Not every bad guy needs a redemption.

No one said anything about redemption.

When the game fails and the sub count falls Blizzard needs to pull a big name out of the hat to get people intersted again.

Everyone knows that Midnight lacks what is required to be a good expansion, it will fail. Arthas shall return.