What they are removing is that if you want Kyrian 5 holy shocks with glimmer build while healing, you are not allowed to farm night fae forms. Or having fun with sort of ineffable gameplay by that covenant, or having a fun teleport available from venthyr. It is just anti-fun.
No my oppinion is not more important. Where did i claim i am more important than others?
I do not care i am part of 25% of my class. I do not need to be a special snowflake, and with 25% of the other paladins with me i also would not feel that way. But it is great when others get their fun out of that 
You CAN, but there’s consequences. I like consequences in games. I think they’re fun.
So I don’t think it’s anti-fun. It’s anti-your-fun.
That’s my point; we can’t all get what we want because some playstyles or mindsets are directly opposed. So who gets their way and why?
Ps; I didn’t claim you said your fun is more important; I asked you the question if it is (or isn’t).
but if a player wants to play optimally why should they not be allowed to?
its not like we are forcing anyone else to play that way, we are more than happy if you want to play the way you want, but why should that mean that im not allowed to play the way i want.
The thing is that no one speaks about flexibility in absolute terms as you think.
Playing around your weaknesses and strenghts is about becoming a little bit worse at something in order to become a little bit better at some other thing, without neglecting the fact that your spec will still be designed in a way that makes it better or worse for some situations.
The flexibility i’m talking about helps to close the gap between your weaknessess and strenghts, but it never swaps them around, it never ignores the field your spec is meant to excel at.
I don’t expect a talent choice to make a single target focused spec transition into an AoE focused spec, i just expect that if the situation requires it, the single target focused spec has some kind of choice to simply not suck at AoE, you know… get a bit worse at single target to get a little better at AoE, being able to be helpful if the group requires that, but never being better at that job than a spec with a toolkit designed around AoE damage.
The matter at hand is that the philosophy behind the system is something i despise. My current skill level, activity or how it can personally affect me (0 impact considering that i’ll still be playing as a casual) is irrelevant.
My biggest issue has nothing to do with performance though.
I think that it’s stupid that the choice is mechanics vs theme when they should be two individual choices: mechanics vs mechanics and then theme vs theme. An honestly, i think the debate is so focused on numbers that this issue is being ignored when it’s probably the biggest point of friction the system will have in the long run for many players.
I prefer a system that allows me to choose between a cool sprint, a teleport or a shield and then allows me to choose if i want my sprint to be a cute little fox, a bat flying around or creepy ghoul for example. And of course, the same can be applied to the class abilities.
I can live with those choices being semi-permanent with a high cost in case i want to change, i don’t like it, but it’s not a deal breaker. But feeling that i have to choose between the cool ability or the theme that fits my character? that doesn’t feel fun at all.
Because it impacts not only them, but the community at large.
Indirectly, yes you are. That kind of mindset is becoming more and more the norm. People in an RPG can not really play what they LIKE anymore, but they ‘have to’ play whatever is deemed optimal. Otherwise they’re ridiculed/ignored/refused. That is a real thing that happens. And it’s because a certain part of the playerbase plays like that and it trickles down to ‘the masses’ who take on that kind of behaviour, but make it into some twisted form.
So it DOES impact others.
well if you are planning on joining into a group with a specific idea in mind, like clearing heroic as an example, then why shouldnt you at least try to play in a way that doesnt waste everyones time, if you are not at all interested in playing optimally or clearing heroic then there is absolutely nothing forcing you to do anything, if you are not trying to clear content then there isnt really anyone to tell you to do things a specific way and if they are then you can just /ignore them because its idiotic.
the impact it has on other people is so minimal it shouldnt change the game to force people to play a way that inpacts their gameplay in a much harsher manner
This kind of mentality is seeping into content where it’s not really needed. But a lot of players still adopt this mindset of ‘be the best or get out’.
And what I agree with Ion on is that THAT kind of mentality/mindset is taking away from part of what an RPG is; having the ability to express yourself by making a character your own.
So… Since that playstyle is hurting one of the pillars of the genre, I think they’re completely within their right, and actually have a responsibility, to do something about it.
You can still optimize your character in many situations. There just won’t be a ‘one size fits all solution’ to every challenge. And I really think that’s better for the game and genre at large. Yes it’s at the cost of some people’s fun, but imo that’s worth it.
(Just like I thought Titanforging was fun. I lost that fun because Blizzard deemed it better for the game overal to remove it - I’m sad I no longer have that fun. But I accept it because it’s ‘for the greater good’).
the way that i want to express myself is to be able to play optimally in all situations, so they are allowing me to express myself in an RPG by removing my ability to do it.
this is where the argument falls flat, like ion in the conversation with preach yesterday saying that if they pull back some of the random procs in the game it would just be a matter of people who are better doing more damage. why is that a problem, why should a player that is skilled be able to perform better than someone who isnt. surely skill expression is just as important and any other kind, but they are just removing the option to choose to express yourself the way you want to.
thats why i just want the abilities to be seperate, because you have the choice to express yourself through the covenant with mounts, and mogs and such but then you can still actually play the game the way you want to as well
I just explained that that way affects more people than just you. So how do you figure that it’s okay then? ‘MY fun at the cost of everyone else’ is basically what you’re saying then.
You are not listening. Yes, YOU will be able to play the game the way you want yes. But many people will not. Trickle down effect.
but if i talk about other people am i not quoting facts i have no way to prove?
thats why im talking about my own experience much like you are.
the system i am suggesting, and have been for the past 3 or 4 days will give everyone, LITERALLY EVERYONE the ability to play the game the way they want to. if you cant understand that then please just stop replying, you clearly dont know what you are talking about
In an offline RPG, the player agency is picking your talent build and the story choices. Some games take it a step further where you can actually kill your questgivers and lose a place to turn in your quests such as can be seen in Divinity Original Sin.
A good RPG also means some class abilities and spell combinations work better than others, otherwise you might as well give it another color and every class would be exactly the same.
It’s a very 2020-thought that everything should be on exact equal levels because otherwise it’s not fair. I prefer to have choices than having to grind out several Covenants just because Ability X from Covenant B is better in Content Y for an off-spec.
What about (competitive) raiding guilds? They will ask their members to grind out every single ability/soulbind because it might be useful for some boss on Mythic difficulty if it becomes a thing where you can use them all but have to grind for it.
In general people will always have a type of content they prefer and/or play the most. For me I prefer raiding, so I will pick the one’s that benefit me during raiding and if that means I’m 90% effective at doing M+ so be it, it’s not my primary source of content.
An example from BFA: You pick the corruptions and gear stat priority based on your primary source of content, this means that you’re not as effective in other content types as other corruptions are better in that type of content. So you grind out more gear/corruption to get a 2nd/3rd gear set that is more viable for that type of content. It’s an endless boring grind.
Blizzard will still balance the covenants/change the abilities during the beta. I can predict the complaints on the forums already about putting Covenant abilities/Soulbinds from Covenants you didn’t pick behind Anima/Reputation/ or some other grind. Because Blizzard will surely not give you this for free 
Is it such a weird thought to just want to make a choice and play the content you enjoy rather than having to spend hours of your day grinding some currency because it’s possible to unlock more borrowed power?
Not true. Then the current trend continues.
There’s a ‘BiS’ solution to every situation then. Nothing changes and the game loses more and more it’s RPG roots and becomes more and more a MOBA or something akin.
You are refusing to acknowledge that that way of playing influences way more than just yourselves. So…
Take your own advice.
im definately not acknowledging that it affects other people, i literally just said in my last post i understand that, but i can only talk to my own experience, because in previous posts when i have quoted other peoples exerpeinces from people i have spoken to and other threads i have read across multiple forums you just claimed i was claiming facts that i couldnt prove, and that i was only seeking out opinions that match my own, so im only using my own experience, even though i fully understand it will affect everyone. i literally cannot explain it any better than that.
please actually read what im typing, i tried to explain it in the previous reply but you clearly didnt read that, so i will put it here again
there you go, actually read it this time please
Yeah, very convenient… Just disregard important factors so your solution SEEMS like the perfect one. Sorry, but reality doesn’t work that way.
The devs thankfully are aware of all of this and hopefully will make the right calls.
That’s all I ask for.
i have said this a lot over the past week, please stop trolling me,
when i use experiences of other people you claim im citing facts i cannot prove, when i dont them im only thinking about myself, please just make up your mind and decide which way im allowed to think. because its getting very confusing having to only think the way you deem acceptable
but to humor you i will go the other way this time.
i have read through a couple hundred forum threads over the past 9 months since blizzcon, i have spoken to the majorty of players that are in my guild about these systems, the vast, vast majority of the opinions i have seen suggest that they are not happy with this system and would rather have the option to choose for themselves.
this is why i believe that the system is complete trash in its current form and should have major changes before going to live giving players the chance to choose how they want to play, if you want to just stick to one thing you are free to do that, but for people who dont want to they are then offered the right to choose as well.
I have addressed this previously, but you also seem to just disregard THAT.
People are ALWAYS more vocal when they are unhappy with something. Those that are happy or fine with something tend to keep quiet.
So that alone explains ‘your findings’.
Disagree. And heyyyyy the devs and my ideas about this topic are alligned.
Good day.
i have seen more than enough people who disagree with changing it just like you, the main problem there is that they are unwilling to give any actual reason for keeping it as it is on beta other than, “because i like it” or “it wont affect me”
just because someone agrees with something it doesnt mean that they are silent, but if someone just gives an opinion without actually attempting to offer and reason or to clarify why they think its better then i will disregard it, because they are just offering an opinion for the sake of offering it, specially if they are people complaining about a system that will greatly affect people taking part in content that those people claim to not be interested in or take part in, so literally admitting it barely affects them.
just because you have the same opinion on something as someone else doesnt mean its correct.
No?
There you go AGAIN, since you keep disregarding it. There’s your ‘other’ reason.
It’s a well known, well researched fact that IN MOST CASES, yes this is exactly what it means. That you are not privy to that fact, is your own failing.
Doesn’t mean it’s wrong either.
But what it DOES mean, is that the devs want their game to be more conforming to something I agree with. Lucky me?
yes!
the people who are unaffected by most of these changes are people that have outwardly and on multiple occasions said they are the kinds of people that find a talent set that they like or enjoy and stick with it, that might mean they happened to guess correctly, but i would guess that it means that they are running suboptimal talents, but the say they dont care and stick with what they like regardless, so why does it differ here, its the exact same situation and they have said it will have no affect on them, you are literally just trying to force players to play the way you want them to, regardless of how negative the affect is on them, and i will say it once more, im trying to allow everyone the choice, not just myself.
there are hudreds if not thousands of people that are on both sides of this argument, you are clearly missing something if you think that all of the people that are agreeing with you are hiding under a rock, because i know for a fact that a lot of people that are agreeing with me dont feel the need to come to the forums and argue with people about it, so the same could be said for both sides of the divide.
but if by blizzards own admission there are more people on one side of the argument than another surely there is more than enoug hvalidity to the concerns. if there are so many more people that are vocal about a change being needed is there not a reason for said change to be made, rather than us having to slog our way through a game that sucks for 1 or 2 patches before the realise themselves that we were just correct originally and change it anyway
consideirng that has happened repeatedly for the past couple of expansions.