Should sylvanas become a high elf again?

Ok - next question:

Where does it say that Alleria can teleport anywhere? :rofl:

This is why MMO champion’s posters are somewhat questionable, because they make very outlandish claims with no real lore evidence. Primarily, those who are Alliance fans, but no small amount of Horde posters as well.

EDIT: I remember being blasted by the Blood Elf community for my support of the Purge. But it wasn’t the Purge itself - it was the first (and seemingly last) smaller faction war story that had a fitting start and fitting end. We haven’t had that since.

He thinks the Void portals can bypass anything and reach everywhere in the universe, simply because it’s the Void…but if that was the case, the Eredar spellcasters and warlocks of the Legion then would have simply teleported their demonic armies on Azeroth when they wanted, since they can cast the Void too…

I was a bit angry in that period because Blizzard didn’t make it exactly clear that Aethas was involved (by inaction), because a quest involving him and the Orc commander was bugged, so I believed he was completely innocent and I had to defend him at all costs…plus I was angry that Jaina actually killed Sunreavers guards even before calling for Aethas and without any proof of their involvement (a detail that even a “serious” poster like Korae was happy to ignore in order to defend her and Vereesa, so all that made me even angrier back then).

By getting “anything nice”, you mean the Horde to return to the times of the Second War anyway (like getting the Amani back into the fold for example), so of course we Elves fans don’t like it…it’s not like we dislike the Horde inherently, but we are just forced to stay here anyway (for now at least, things can’t change until a new game is made anyway)

1 Like

I get that and overall, I was team sunreaver - but, the Purge of Dalaran on it’s own was told so much better than MoP post-5.2 and the entire BFA.

That excitement of getting to a similar questline never happened in BFA and I think it should.
A good prelude to 8.2 would have been a “Purge of Suramar” or something like that. Either way - something that involved Nightborne vs Night Elves, which distracted both as Azshara and her Naga stole back the Tidestone.
(Horde victory this time round and the Night Elves would be removed from Suramar.)

And if they can cast the Void to, then that means that Ban’dinoriel truly is one of the best creations from any society.

Also, wouldn’t that mean - since the Blood Elf Magisters are capable of maintaining Ban’dinoriel in place of the Runestones, that these Arcane methods are actually better than the Void?

Of course. I couldn’t care less if it’s Horde or Alliance pushed - if it affects the Sin’dorei and Shal’dorei, then I’ll say it.

1 Like

Amani and Ogres are our natural allies. So it would be a great benefit if old allegiances return.

For Amani, it’s a meme that we need to kill them once in a while at this point…not a lot of people would like them to join the Horde, that would ruin the meme of their lore since Zul’jin. Even some Troll fans I know are happy with just playable Forest Trolls like the Revantusk.

For Ogres, until Blizzard can make a decent female model that people would actually play, then no…IF female Ogres actually exist, anyway :stuck_out_tongue:

The one way i can see Amani technically as a part of the Horde would be if Talanji reunites the Empire of Zul to avenge Rastakhan. If that ever happens to come up.

Ogres are too big to function mechanically and if they made a mini-me version they’d basically end up at Orcs again, because that’s basically what orcs are.

If they are under direct Zandalari leadership, then sure, I guess we can talk about it.

The Zandalari still need to assure the Blood Elves that the Amani will stop all violence in Quel’thalas, and that they will open Zul’Aman to Horde and Blood Elf visitors in order to check regularly what they do in there…

(also I just recalled of that Amani troll boss having a Blood Elf girl (warlock? or priest? I can’t recall now) helping him in the fight…that was extremely weird, unless maybe she was mind-controlled?

Why should they. The elves are literally colonizers. If they want peace the elves need to make amendmants.

The Amani didn’t help in the fight against the Scourge for all these years so in my book they lost all their rights to Quel’thalas even if they are the original natives.

Since they didn’t help against the Undead before, why should they have any right right now? It’s already a lot for the Amani if the Blood Elves allow them to keep Zul’Aman. So if they want to join the Horde they must prove they are actually useful to the Horde and Quel’thalas by making efforts and concessions.

Same concept that applies to the High Elves and Void Elves who chose to run away to the Alliance instead of staying and fighting, really.

If memory serves, didn’t the Amani take up the chance to kill the Elves, once Arthas and Kel’Thuzad had left?

1 Like

That happened like 7 thousand years before the current events. The Amani Empire, with Zandalari help got gigawrecked 3 thousand years ago and never recovered, at this moment Amani have nothing to offer other than their bodies into the meatgrinder and they haven’t got many of those either, at this point.

1 Like

Sort of, their fleet got annihilated, when the Sunwell exploded.

Shame that Blizzard added this event in a book but not in Warcraft 3 Reforge as a new mission to play where Kael’thas comes in Quel’thalas just after Arthas and Kel’Thuzad leave and Kael needs to blow up the Corrupted Sunwell (with Lor’themar, Rommath and Liadrin) and maybe a new cinematic too where the Amani fleet sink and we see the rage of Zul’jin…that would have been awesome to see in the game lol

There is a lot of things Warcraft 3 Reforge could and likely should have done. Enough to have an entire another expansion pack for the RtS maybe two, if it didn’t turn out the way it did.

There is a lot of nishe lore about the scattered through old comicbooks and whatnot, which is in the hellscape of kinda canon, until contradicted, if the contradiction appears intentional…

1 Like

They could have done so much with W3 Reforged; but so many people also make their own custom maps, custom quests, custom campaigns.

Somebody designed a whole map surrounding the highlands of Quel’Thalas / the Ghostlands and a group of High Elves remained there, loyal only to themselves now.

I imagine somebody could easily create a campaign relating to the Blood Elves vs Amani on Quel’Danas. Playing devil’s advocate, but due to the big named NPC blood elves already being in the Sunwell Plateau at the time when the Amani landed on Quel’Danas, it’s possible only a handful of unnamed elven defenders were keeping them at bay.

1 Like

Well. I see there are still some questions about when, how and where here. So do let me indulge you all with the proper recap of Thalassian history starting with Amani wars. I just read the Exploring Azeroth - Eastern Kingdoms and BOI that one is a Bomb shell. Combined with what was presented in Sylvanas book…woah. We are in for a treat. With a slight support from Ultimate Visual Guide, enhanced and expanded from 2016.

I will describe each event separately and add *, **, *** and so on under those sections that will require further comment from me down the line when I am finished.

  1. Over 2000 years ago High Elves were at war with Amani Trolls. The loss of life was so great that first iteration of Lament of the Highborne was composed as well as the word Sin’dorei. This was during Anasterian’s reign as he alone was already over 1000 years old.

This forced Elves to reach out to the Humans and convince them that Trolls will be a threat to them too if not dealt with. Also Humies would be taught magic. And so they were. Combined Human-Elven forces brought Trolls low. It was said that waterfall like entrance to Zul’aman was read with Troll blood when Anasterian was through. This also caused him quite the PTSD but about that later.

  1. City of Dalaran is built shortly after the war. A sizeable Thalassian minority moved in to it. De Iure they were still owing fealty to Anasterian. De Facto they were independent and bowed down only before the Council of Six.

This era also marked the Golden Age for Quel’thalas. Before and during war, High Elves lived only within Silvermoon and Quel’danas vicinity. After Trolls were defeated, Farstriders expanded the borders reaching all the way down to Thalassian pass. Elven population exploded tenfold, settling new areas beyond Silvermoon.

  1. Such era of pease would last for two millenia. Quel’thalas would reach it’s very peak of prosperity. But also some Elves like Alleria Windrunner believed it also reached the era of stagnation. When Year 0 began and Orcs poured through to Azeroth, Anasterian was apathetic to act still bearing mental scars from Troll wars.

His PTSD was so strong that he became a man that saw too much of the past and too little of the present. And keeping his people in the dark, not telling them about anything was his way of protecting them, believing that Farstriders will keep borders safe.

  1. Alleria’s departure marked exodus of another portion of Thalassian Elves away from their homeland. But it was convenient enough for Anasterian as he was bound to aid descendants of Arator.

When Horde began to lay waste to Quel’thalas, all of Anasterian’s shortcomings came to light and many Elves paid with their lives. Something that would begin character developlment for Lor’themar. But about him later.

  1. After Second War ended and Anasterian pulled out his forces and Kingdom out of the Alliance, many Elves that joined it, refused and outright defied their king. Warcraft 3 manual about Priests and Sorcreresses is the best example for it. So the idea of Quel’thalas leaving the Alliance was as old as the game itself.

Boldy claiming, those Elves cared little about their King’s decree and remaiend with their non-elven friends. Some were salty toward their King for his short sighted demeanor. Others lost their entire families and had nothing to return to. And some like Vereesa got their families partially shattered and got estranged with the remaining living ones.

  1. Quel’thalas would return to it’s lethargic state all the way until Third War. Lordaerom fell and High Elves that served with their friends from different races mostly fled to Kalimdor only to ultimately settle in Theramore.

High Kingdom itself wouldn’t fare any better, as Arthas decimated the High Elves.
It is of PARAMOUNT importance to note that he did so out of annoyance and irritation. He offered the Elves that he would spare them if they gave him the Sunwell. Even after he showed Anasterian what became of Sylvanas and gave him one last chance to stand down showing that destruction of Quel’thalas was not his priority, nor even goal.

Many Elven civilians died because Arthas told Sylvanas to do so as a form of further punishment for making his trip to the Sunwell all the more difficult.

ABSOLUTE Most of the Elves that died that day remained so. Arthas brought into Undeath only the most pesky ones. Rangers mostly for Sylvanas to lead them. Mages, Priests and others simply to become caricatures of their once living selves. First Darkfallen and San’layn were born, with gray pale skin and red eyes showing unending rage. But there were not many of them.

  1. Arthas left and knew not all of the Elves died. He didn’t care about them. As if some semblance of pity remained within him. Survivors began to burn the bodies of the dead in giant pyres. The pillars of flames dwarfed those caused by the Orcs and Red Dragons during the Second War. When Sylvanas as Banshee traveled there, she noticed that even all the way to Farstrider Retreat a thick shroud of ash covered the trees and leaves.

It is IMPORTANT to note that even though Thalassian population was decimated and Silvermoon destroyed. Court of the Sun remained mostly intact. And through it, Elven history and knowledge.

As for the people themselves. Their numbers were mostly reset and now resemble that from before Amani wars when they lived mostly in Silvermoon. So YES. Blood Elves are as numerous now as their ancestors once were during early years of Anasterian’s reign. A number that is still capable of expanding tenfold if Elves are given a chance.

  1. Kael’thas then at Dalaran, gathered Thalassian minority from that city and rushed back home to aid it. He gathered the survivors and regruped them. Formed an army and went to the aid of the Alliance. Only to be met with prejudice from Grand Marshall Othmar Garithos. *

During his stay in Quel’thalas, Kael’thas, Rommath and Astalor Bloodsworn destroyed the Sunwell which blasted away Amani fleet when Trolls smelled blood on the water and wanted to finish off the Elves. Three stones that were used to destroy the Well later became Verdant Spheres used by Kael’thas. They originated from three locations later used by Night Elves in Ghostlands to spy on Blood Elves.

  1. By that time Kael’thas only named the members of his Army as Blood Elves with citizens of Quel’thalas back at home still being High Elves. His turbulent relation with Garithos came to an end when Kael’thas was forced to ally with the Naga. This also did not go unnoticed by the portion of his subjects.

Grand Magus Telestra, Kael’thas’ mentor, abandonned him as well as some of the Dalaran High Elves. But still they were indiscrimately put on the chopping block by Garithos. Though as the Prince fled to Outland, so too they did flee to their Kirin Tor masters.

Loyalists from Dalaran, plus some of the Elves taken from Quel’thalas would remain as Blood Elves and formed Sunfury in Outland.

  1. Some time later Rommath returned with new knowledge of siphoning magic from living things and objects. This caused an outcry and protest from Ranger Lord Renthar Hawkspear and Lor’themar was forced to banish him all that supported his claims. And thus only those that went to Quel’lithien Lodge remained as High Elves. The rest of the population renamed themselves Blood Elves.

To make sure that the rest of his people stand united Lor’themar utilized Silvermoon Priesthood to preach, teach and “convince” the hesitating ones. **

  1. Fast forward to the end of TBC, Sunwell is restored, Quel’thalas is secured, Sunfury for the most part returned back home from Outland and bolstered the defences. For a time. Many of those Elves hailed from Dalaran and still thought it to be their true home.

And thus a new influential figure came to the light. Aethas Sunreaver who was the most charismatic of those Elves and formulated a plan to re-establish connections and relations with Kirin Tor, defending their actions during Garithos times by claiming that at that period, Kirin Tor was basicly Defunct.

Had it not been, then for sure it would defend Kael’thas and all others prosecuted. Kirin Tor itself desired to rekindle their Alliance with Silvermoon and through it invite the Horde and serve as a neutral ground.

With the prospect of ex-Sunfury now called the Sunreavers returning to Dalaran, those High Elves that initially abandonned Kael’thas, formed a community of their own. Silver Covenant, brought into existence only to defy Sunreavers, out of fear that former subjects of the fallen Prince might still spread his ill influence and treason.

Council of the Six recognizing Lor’themar’s regime as the legitimate government ruled to invite Sunreavers back to their city who lived there for past 2000 years. And thus Thalassian minority within Dalaran remained split ever since.***

  1. It was not the end of division among the High Elves of Dalaran. Silver Covenant was blindly devout to the Alliance and saw Dalaran as part of it. But other High Elves like Telestra still harbored great grudge against Kirin Tor for almost being killed by Garithos. And allied themselves with Malygos to bring an end to the floating city.

They failed and got annihilated, leaving Silver Covenant as pretty much the only High Elves there.

  1. Fast forward to Cataclysm. Quel’litien Lodge fell to ill item that Hawkspear brought there, bringing doom to all but himself and the other Elf that lived there. By the end of that expansion Theramore was destroyed taking the lives of almost all High Elves that left Quel’thalas during Second War, safe for Allerian Elves.

Reputation of Aethas Sunreaver was damaged in the process, making him a leader that cannot control or trust his own men. As it was his own Mage that weakened Theramore’s defences and created Mana Bomb that destroyed it.

  1. Fast forward to Mists of Pandaria. Yet another blunder from Aethas Sunreaver, orchestrated by Garrosh Hellscream, involving the theft of Divine Bell from Darnassus using portals from Dalaran by the Sunreavers. This caused the event known as Purge of Dalaran. Where mostly Silver Covenant went full Kristal Nacht on the Sunreavers.

Take note those Elves lived among each other for centuries and generations. Neighbours killed neighbours.

During that time Lor’themar was planning to ditch the Horde in favor for the Alliance as he saw that Garrosh was making sure that Horde as it was known went to ceased to be. At least almost.

Garrosh caught wind of that and made sure that Purge of Dalaran would ruin those plans. Quite successfully as Lor’themar lost all faith in Varian, whom he was negotiating with, seeing him just as incompetent as Aethas. Man that cannot control his own. ****

2000 years alliance between Silvermoon and Dalaran was effectively over. *****

Silver Covenant aided by Kirin tor and surviving Sunreavers aided by Quel’thalas clashed on the Isle of Thunder, rendering Vereesa and her rejects full time traitors, as they did not only raise their arms against fellow brethren from the same city, but also on their kin from Homeland.

  1. Fast forward to Legion. Khadgar seeing the tragedy of the Purge, and Dalaran no longer being considered as neutral ground, especially by the Blood Elves, tried to undo as much damage as possible. Lor’themar initially refused to meet out there to discuss demonic threat, claiming that “Many Blood Elves died in that City.”

This suggests that Vereesa and her traitors got their hands really dirty with the blood of their own race. Khadgar wanted to restore the Alliance between Dalaran and Silvermoon, by reinstating Sunreavers and inviting Horde back. His actions had only partial success and only Sunreavers returned. Alliance between the cities is still nonexistent as pointed out by Esara Verrinde. ******

  1. Blood Elves not only remained in the Horde, but also brought new friends they made along the way. The Nightborne who saw the flaws of both factions and decided that Alliance was not their way, making the same arguments that Blood Elves had.

Then came the case with resurgent Alleria and her quest for finding another sect of rejects that got booted out of Quel’thalas somehwere after TBC and before Legion.

Recap is now over. And here are some important new information that I have not yet disclosed.

In the Exploring Azeroth -Eastern Kingdoms we find out that whole book is written from the point of view of Mattias Shaw and adorned with comments from Anduin among others, sharing their points of view.

Now the section about Quel’thalas is especially important and I will convey it while commenting on the points that I have taken.

  • Garithos. His actions are well presented by Mattias Shaw, seeing him as main reason on why Quel’thalas is now where it is. Anduin is also fully aware of that as they share their regrets over the fact it could not be prevented. So yes. Stormwind Higher Ups know this story well.

** Matthias Shaw is fully aware of the Mind Controlling Priests during TBC era. But what is most surprising he doesn’t condone Elves for doing that. He even said “Like with all Dark Times, a certain tradition has returned. Court Priests literally altered the minds of those who wanted to Protest.” A quote that picked Anduin’s great interest.

This strongly suggests that not only Mattias Shaw knows of this but also has seen it. Stormwind had it’s own share of downfall and rebuilding process. So perhaps this took place out there as well. Something that can be used as an argument the next time when High Elves fanboys will bring it up. Blood Elves are vindicated as they are not the only ones to do it.

*** That one must have stung Vereesa quite badly. All that work to bring like minded High Elves and prevent Kael’thas’ stain to pollute the fine city of Dalaran, only to be told by her own Human husband and father of her twin sons to go back to the Kitchen and not leave it until further notice as he will be busy courting Aethas.

**** Lor’themar was not excited about joining Alliance at all. But thanks to Valeera who being a proud Blood Elf, made sure that Varian knew everything there was to know why Blood Elves were in the Horde. And as mentioned earlier. Garrosh was unmaking the Horde, so the Regent Lord simply wanted to not be left out in the wind.

The idea to reform the Horde from within with Vol’jin, Thrall and Baine came later to his mind. Not to mention that his character development progressed nicely. He became a man that came to abhorre any form of station inheritance through hereditary means. He came to conslusion that Quel’thalas will not survive another apathetic Anasterian and absent Kael’thas.

Which is why Horde suits him better. No High King from father to son. But first a Warchief chosen as the best from the best. And now a council. That is why he doesn’t want to take crown and start new dynasty.

The fact he is good and skilled doesn’t mean his progeny will be. His distate first started with Hereditary Ranger-General rank being in the hands of Windrunner family.

***** Now that one is interesting thing. The 2000 years Alliance between Dalaran and Silvermoon. Something that both Rhonin the Redhair and Khadgar greatly valued and wanted to preserve and restore. Or maybe there’s more to it? Maybe Dalaran actually requires something of Quel’thalas through this Alliance? Something absolutely of utmost importance for Kirin Tor to prosper? It is always funny how it is Kirin Tor that messes up this Alliance and then tries to rekindle it.

****** Yep. Magisters are not happy with Dalaran. Even those that believed it to be neutral with slightly Alliance biased direction now call it a closeted Alliance city. The tradition where every Magister used to train at some point of their lives in Dalaran is over. Suramar awaits. And Nighthold is a far better place of Arcane Knowledge.

Khadgar knows this. And he is not happy about this development.

And now some final thoughts.

Mattias Shaw strongly advises to Anduin to try and bring Silvemoon into the Alliance. Both men want Quel’thalas to stand with Stormwind. And for that they decided to spy inside the city and seek out those who would lean toward the Alliance.

So far they managed to get one Elf to spy on Lor’themar. But she isn’t doing it for ideological means. But for gold only. A poor ally.

Other interesting stuff is that entire Loot from both Magister’s Terrace and Sunwell Plateu is in Blood Elven hands.

Kael’thas’ Hawkstrider has been taken care of. Phoenix Hatchling also is being cared for on Quel’danas but due to it’s nature it grows slowly. But eventually Que’thalas shall have a new Al’ar like Phoenix again.

Alliance tried to negotiate the return of important items that have great legacy value for them. Like Cowl of Alleria.

Magister’s Terrace was turned into Museum.

Hawkstrider is a default mount of Thalassian Elves even before Second and Third Wars. Quel’dorei Steed was an esteemed mount from Anasterian’s personal stables and given only to accomplished Quel’dorei like Sylvanas’ parents. Her father’s steed was called Parley and her mother’s Arrowflight.

Thalassian Elves displayed mostly silver and gold hair, with dark one being very rare. From all Farstriders gathered at Alleria’s inauguration only one had dark hair in what Sylvanas described as being “Sea of Gold and Silver.”

Also the reason why Mattias Shaw and Anduin want Quel’thalas in the Alliance, is because they believe that Blood Elves are back on track. Their dark times are over and whole society is recovering nicely.

The Spymaster himself, harbors greater RESPECT for Lor’themar than he TRUSTS Alleria. That speaks volume.

I hope this has helped a lot. To those who do not follow TL DR of course.

1 Like

Taladris, nice detailed post summarising Thalassian history…I learned some new info myself. I think it would work very well as a new informative thread about Blood Elves and Thalassian Elves in general if you want to create it.

However, about this…:

In Warcraft 3 Arthas never made that “offer” of sparing them in exchange for the Sunwell, he immediately started invading and attacking all the High Elves he met, only implying he had made his “offer” after Silvermoon was already destroyed anyway and not before, so maybe that’s a retcon.

In any case nobody sane would have accepted that “offer”, so the result doesn’t change much for the Quel’dorei losses in the Third War. Death Knight Arthas could just lie (very probably), and even if he really wanted to spare the High Elves, Ner’zhul would have forced him to kill most of them anyway, because in Warcraft 3 the plan of the Scourge was to exterminate all the living beings in Lordaeron and in the zones near Lordaeron like Quel’thalas too.

Also the High Elves probably thought that losing the Sunwell would mean death for all of them so they would never accept that offer. (and even if it wasn’t true that all of them would die without the Sunwell, they wouldn’t take any risk about it of course)

Thalyssra has such a great singing voice:

The Horde needs an actual strong nation joining them. Not outcasts and kingdoms that are on the brink of destruction. Lile the Tol’vir. Or the Gordunni and Amani.

So the Horde should invite kingdoms that have collapsed and lie in ruin on the brink of total annihilation? Because that’s what you’ve named.

Tol’vir nuked themselves and never recovered, while the Cataclysm saw a schism that basically reduced them to a tiny village.

Gorduni are only allowed to persist, because they’re limitted to harassing a tiny outpost, in a hostile frontier nobody cares for.

Amani crumbled thousands of years ago and have only ever gotten beaten down farther. They aren’t dead, but may as well be.