well for me it is more fun to be level 45 then level 50 at moment …
but moust fun is level 10 …
I get the sense that all you do is guided by numbers isn’t it? DPS, levels, any amount of anything. Numbers are all you care about. Well, you do you I guess. But chasing numbers will burn you out inevitably. Just look at all the meta streamers at the top of their game. They are all dead inside. Playing classes they don’t like because they are meta. Doing content they don’t like because they are meta. Doing things a certain way because they are meta. Using cookie cutter talent setups because they are meta. All for the numbers, none for the enjoyment of it all. Good luck with that. I’m just glad I’m not a slave to the meta like you are.
This is the long and short of it, really. When I got my rogue to max level in legion I felt like I had to make a choice. All three specs were fun, but I decided to go with the one I thought was most fun. I didn’t bother checking the meta.
I’m not a fan of the changes made by the Shadowlands prepatch. Not for rogues, at least. I’m happy with the changes made to Shadowpriests, though, and there will be people who are very upset about the changes to Shadowpriests. People who liked to play with Voidform. Depending on your preference, you either got the long or short straw.
My biggest gripe with Outlaw is the addition of SnD as a baseline ability and the changes to RtB. I feel like this solution shouldn’t satisfy anyone. It “fixes” the issue of having to reroll but it doesn’t remove the randomness. SnD as a talent did remove the randomness for those who did not like it. However, the “1%” who likes to play the number’s game, as you say, they’ll always take the option that yields more DPS even if they don’t like the gameplay it provides. RtB, in spite of its random nature, did outperform SnD, meaning SnD wasn’t a legitimate option for them. In my view, the SnD talent should have been buffed long ago. In this particular case, I believe we could have had it both ways had they addressed the issue sooner. But alas…
Oh but I totally agree. The thing is that the discussion so far has largely been about some being being unhappy with SnD and that is what I based my responses on.
However the spec would be much better off with RTB gone completely, or reworked into something that has an expected outcome.
I still think the talent were you could replace RtB with SnD was great. That way everyone could pick the ability they prefered and not being forced to deal with both. I prefer SnD. you prefer RtB. Both are fine. I simply want to choose what I like just like you want to choose what you like.
My other major problem is the removal of the BtE stun. Replacing the BtE stun with Kidney Shot plays out like a major downgrade in my opinion. i’ve learned to use Kidney Shot somewhat decently after a few PVP matches. But the amount of situations where the BtE stun would have hit that exact spot I needed it to to overcome the challenge are innumeral. One of the great things about Outlaw was the mid-range capabilities. I could not only stand toe to toe with melee classes, but also with ranged classes. If my grapling hook was on cooldown and was attacked by, for example, a hunter, I could pop out my gun and stun him with BtE and either get away or get close and attempt to finish him. Now that possibility is gone and the only ways to deal with ranged classes is to get close in stealth or just vanish and run. Outlaw felt like a hunter/mage killer at some times due to the BtE stun. I still miss it and Kindey Shot still feels like a downgrade, even when I pull off a well placed stun in a fight. it just doesn’t work very well because I know what I’m missing. I know this fight with that hunter could have worked out a lot better. I know I had a higher chance of dealing with that mage before these changes. It just doesn’t work for me.
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The thing was that I didn’t. I just went with RTB because it was blatantly better than SnD, not because I liked it. Its great that you play in an environment that lets you choose and do whatever the hell you please. But I prefer playing in a competitive environment and I’m not about to handicap myself for the sake of personal preference.
Its not like it was a small difference either, the spectrum was absolutely humongous.
Then pick RtB. I don’t see why anyone should be forced to use it though. But even so, I don’t play competitively so I don’t have that problem.
That’s what I’m saying. I don’t want to. But the games inner workings compelled me to pick RTB because it was by far the better choice. As such, I think the talent “solution” wasn’t a solution at all. RTB is just bad game design.
The issue with that talent is that SnD was so bad compared to RtB that you had a better overall damage done with NO TALENT PICKED on that row (leaving you with RtB but none of the 3 available talents) than if you actually picked the talent SnD.
Never in the history of the game has a talent, something that you ADD to your character, reduced your performance compared to picking nothing. That was a total failure.
So, if you preferred SnD you didn’t really have a solution either.
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I didn’t have a solution, that is true. i still prefered SnD over RtB. I don’t like RNG in my gameplay. BFA is one big RNG fest. I guess I just couldn’t take any more of it. And as i said, I care very little about damage and a lot more about gameplay. I liked having no RtB despite the reduced DPS output. Hate me all you want, but I just don’t get the radical fixation on DPS. An entire guild called Undergeared dedicated themselves to clearing WOTLK raids when it was still relevant entirely in blues and lacking all the high end enchants, buffs, flasks etc. that people thought were required to clear raids back then. And they came pretty damned far doing that. Skill trumps numbers.
Dude nobody is hating on you. We’re all friends here.
We just want to show you that the games issues aren’t as simple as “just pick SnD then”.
While myself, and I’m sure Shadenox as well, is/are very glad that it works for you… Things just don’t work that way for a lot of us. I take pride in making the absolute most out of my performance. The game is fun that way for me. But that doesn’t illegitimize the fact that I have complaints about how it all gets put together.
I don’t go with such feelings about a guy who responded politely to me twice in the internet 
Anyways, it depends what you do in the game. Foe instance I aspire to clear high level content in PvE and compete in high rated PvP (not like tournament players but high enough still). At one point, if you want to compete you have to use a sword that won’t break when you swing. If you voluntarily pick something who you know is worse you will end up below where you could have been because, even with great skill, there will be an equally geared person who was smart enough to use a better build and so you can’t get ahead of that person. And it’s your own fault.
Yeah but my point was, it didn’t matter that it was RNG since not playing around it, just performing a standard rotation, the exact same as you would with SnD, was better with RtB and 0 talents that with SnD talented.
So, you, as a player, could play RtB and not encounter any RNG as you wouldnot take it into account at all, just press it as you’d press SnD. And that would net better results than SnD. I don’t know if I’m clear for you (I understand what I mean but hey !).
And then ofc if you played around it on top… SnD was oh so far behind. Sadly.
Little edit, I actually spent some time trying out the new Outlaw more seriously instead of playing Sub Sub Sub Sub Sub, and they changed Grand Melee so now it extends SnD by 2s per CP used while active. So if you roll it and have a Dreadblade phase, or if you roll it twice in a row you can extend SnD a lot. Right now it seems there isn’t a limit. Without even trying I ended up with a “3 minutes remaining” SnD buff. So you might even not need to press it more than twice per fight if you roll Grand Melee !
Wait what? This I have to try 
Yeah it’s a bit stupid tbh. It should be at least capped at a minute or something.
I’m wondering if it’s intentional or bugged. There could be a hard limit but it’s above 3 mins since I was able to reach that, which is already crazy.
I never said anyone hated me. I said you can hate me all you want, if you’d want to. I’ve stopped caring about what people think of me a long time ago. i’m too stubborn and individualistic for that.
The way I see it, chasing numbers will take all the fun out of the game. For you, for me, for everyone. I’m not 100% sure I’m right of course. We’ll see what happens.
I prefer to be challenged. I prefer to be the underdog. I like facing greater odds. i like not being the best and still win in the end.
It’s a bit like The Hobbit (the book. I didn’t like the movies at all). A Thief who confronts a mighty dragon that destroyed an entire Dwarven empire just to sit ona pile of gold. A tiny little Halfling Thief. Small, underwhelming, someone who’d never have amounted to much and be completely ordinary if not for one adventerous wizard and his band of dwarven oddballs. He rose up to the challenge and came out victorious in the end. That little Halfling thief, robbing a dragon of his treasure. Not by being big. Not by being strong. Not because he was the best. But because he was smart, creative and found courage despite of his fear.
That’s the kind of person I like. That’s the kind of person I’d want to be in such a situation. That’s the way I like to play the game. Or any game for that matter.
Try playing Dark Souls or Sekiro. Die a thousand deaths. Stand up face the challenge ahead a thousand times over. Never give up. Never give in.
Unbend. Unbowed. Unbroken.
Not because you’re big. Not because you’re strong. Not because you’re the best. But because you’re small. Because you’re weak. Because you’re no one special and the world around you couldn’t care less about you. And yet you stood tall and faced the seemingly impossible odds stacked against you.
Strength is not the absence of weakness. It’s to be strong despite your weakness.
And if you can’t be strong, then atleast be smart.
Sounds a lot like an RP-peptalk mate. I’d prefer to be both whenever I can.
Sounds a lot like how I’ve lived my life up until now. By all means I have lost the lotery from a darwinistic perspective. Born in a broken home. Suffered suicidal depression. Nearly died multiple times due to disease before I was even six years old. And yet here I stand. Scarred for life, beaten down and dragged through the dirt. And yet I’m alive. Now I think about it, being alive is actually an achievement on its own considering how messed up my life has been for the most part.
I’ve always been the underdog. And I’ve come to wear that as a badge of honor.
Now that I’ve been thinking about it… I think i’ll take the Outlaw changes for what they are. I’ll make something of it. I’ll make it my own, like I’ve always done.
Sometimes I just need to throw my thoughts around and have them thrown back to me by others.
Thank you for this exchange of thoughts. I think found the answer i’m looking for.
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Which was the main problem. Not only did SnD have to compete with RtB, it had to make up for not having Alacrity. SnD had to be buffed quite a lot in order to compete, and buffing SnD would have been the correct course of action.
Of course, perfectly balancing the two would be difficult, especially when you consider how power creep has become the norm of progression. A better solution might be to remove RtB – and I say that even as someone who likes the ability. I said as much in my long post about how wrong RtB and SnD felt together when the pre-patch was in the PTR.
It’s all we can do. If you can make it work, then good for you 
… but if you cannot find enjoyment in the spec you should consider rerolling. I’ve had to abandon many specs I’ve thought fun because of changes wrought by expansions, and it’s always frustrating when it happens. I’m still undecided whether I’ll continue with Outlaw or try something else.
I’m a stubborn bastard. I’ll figure something out eventually. 
I will indeed reroll if it really doesn’t work out for me though. Fortunately I have an entire alt army to pick another class from. All classes have something I like about it. When it comes to specs I’m a DPS maniac. I’m liking Warlock a lot (current main alt for backup is a Destro Warlock), but I’ve also been leveling a Ret Paladin and a Frost DK. And I’ve been dabbling in Enh and Ele Shaman lately. I have characters of all classes, but the ones mentioned above are the ones I’ve been playing around with the most besides Outlaw Rogue. Might also try Sub Rogue if Outlaw fails.
Hey, ladies and gents! Just tried some Outlaw rogue in legacy raids these days and it does feel clunky or just needs brain muscle to re adjust.
Firstly I do not get what is the purpose of having Slice and Dice active - it just forces you to spend first 1-2 seconds on it and then it builds up on time. Just make it passive in this case.
Not really clever or fun design of the skill.
Roll the Bone on cooldown is unusual to have, I never minded rolling one more time if I had undesirable buff. Now you cannot do that - not a massive disadvantage but nonetheless downgrade to what we had.
Between the Eyes is the biggest disappointment out of all changes I believe, having ranged stun removed just takes away so much utility and niche from the spec. And just to be used as a damage amplifier.
It seems that Outlaw got slapped by bad unprunning, we have 3 more abilities added that either downgrade the rotation or just simply does not add anything new.
Not to mention 3 buffs to maximising the damage output.
Level 90 talent - that is one tough choice to make between alacrity and Dreadblades.
Also r.i.p. Blade Flurry - you will be forever missed and cherished, the days of glory in M+ has ended with you dear friend!
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