SL should Bring PvP stats back

PVP Arenas
41

The issue is that right now only some of them are valid options only for some specs in some situations. And they always take the second trinket slot, the one that is subject to change, because the first trinket slot is always taken by a PvE trinket no matter what, since they are too powerful (at least in competitive play, maybe you’ll answer me that you don’t always have one on, but mmh…).

For instance as a Rogue, I’ll go Drest in 100% of the scenarios. Then, if I’m a target, I can also get emblem. If we want to kill a rsham or a rdruid spec bear form dk dh hero, maledict. Some comps, spite. But Drest will always remain. So, right now, if I had to put a CC breaker I’d go Drest CC breaker. Always.

It’s the same for most healers. The claw is 12500 mana per 2 minutes which is huge, and the totem is basically a 1m30 powerful healing CD. Most healers would therefore go Totem CC breaker, because totem is hardly replaceable at the moment. So, you would pick is as a given, and only then think about the second trinket.

My entire point being, if there is any such trinket in SL, we will all have the CC breaker and those powerful trinkets. There wouldn’t really be a choice as that could only result in making you less competitive. You’d pick CC breaker, sure, and then the second trinket would be a Drest like one because it’s too strong, and only then would you think “okay what do I put as second trinket, maybe male, maybe… ah nvm I amready have two, forget it”.

42

I find some comfort of thought in the fact that Ion Hazzikostas specifically expressed regret – multiple times – about Blizzard’s slow and lackluster ability to apply balance changes to trinkets where needed, when needed, during BfA.

I mean, Blizzard’s preferred solution is a good solution if they carry it through.

A PvE trinket turns out to be overpowered or broken in PvP? Nerf it!

That works.

When they do that, and they do it reasonably quickly, it works.

And since they seem aware that this has to be a priority, I won’t personally be too worried.

If it turns out half-way into the first Season of Shadowlands that there’s some overpowered PvE trinket and Blizzard are slow to do anything about it, by all means, let them hear it.

But I personally won’t worry needlessly until it happens. If it happens.
If I were overly pessimistic about Shadowlands I wouldn’t buy it, let alone play it.

43

Unpopular opinion:
Pve trinkets should be decent in pvp, same with weapons like cut of death.
Rest of the gear should be 100% coming from pvp.
Note: I’m not saying they should trump pvp trinkets like they do now, nor I think tank trinkets should even be an option, but I don’t mind one or two slots from Pve gear translating into pvp.
There should be a tradeoff however, where you lose so much?? (resilience, pvp power, etc etc etc.) that you are squichier than someone who is full pvp.

44

PvE gear has no place in PvP because it will allow some specs or classes to have unfair advantage, due of blizzard’s crappy balance skills.
In BFA we already have situation when blade from King’s rest maybe top 3 damage source for players.

1 Like
45

exactly my point, more torghast runs = more pve farm to stay competetive

the devs said there will be conduits obtainable from pve and from pvp. Different ones.

still matters and forces people to do content they dont like to stay competetive. even if its only 5% dmg you need to do it.

which is all pve content

was never like this. most people play more than 1 char and dont want to go fulltime WoW 50hrs a week. I could play 5 or more chars in pvp in every expansion besides BfA.

1 Like
46

On the release of patch 8.2, the Eternal Palace, this same person made a post saying from this day forward all PvE items from 8.1 and 8.1.5 would be nerfed by 50% in PvP (and more in some cases) in order to get players to get new items from 8.2 content instead of having the option to use old ones. Then, when some tank items from EP proved as problematic as CoS tank items did, they didn’t nerf them from the entire season.

While there is no hard evidence, this, in addition to how BfA gearing has been so far, looks like “we would very much like you to grind again since we care about play time. As such we will render your current items useless compared to the ones we are about to release. We know that items are usually better one patch later, but instead of letting things flow like they would, we are going to force it by taking extra steps, such as nerfing the items you complained were too strong right after the very last day of the season so you will be required to farm new ones”.

See, in this situation they could have nerfed them when it became a problem during the season. They proved they could. But instead they nerfed them after the season, specifically to force people to farm new ones right away, and they admitted that without any shame !

If I had time I would find you that post, unfortunately I do not, so you will have to look for it yourself if you wish to verify what I said.

So…

I agree. But… big big when, since it hasn’t happened for two years.

47

I feel like you’re creating your own problems here by defining “competitive” in a manner that is most counter-intuitive to your game preferences.

You don’t like the prospect of running Torghast.
So rather than just getting the freebie legendary and be done with it, you reason to yourself that you need multiple legendaries to be competitive.

Why not just get your freebie legendary and go and play some Arena? And if it then turns out that you need another legendary to qualify for Blizzcon or whatever it is that “competitive” means, then you go and get that.

Starting out by setting the bar at a height where nothing short of multiple legendary items will do, seems stupid.

It was more in response to you guaranteeing that the best PvP conduits would come from raids.
I can’t really respond to that, because I’d have to agree to your premise, and no offense intended, but your guarantee isn’t worth much.
We’ll see how the Beta unfolds.

Need to do it for what? What is the aspiration here that relies so heavily on having BiS gear that anything short of that means outright failure?

You’re playing an MMORPG. Whilst I can respect that not everyone is interested in everything, surely you’re not expecting to be able to progress your character to its maximum potential whilst avoiding 99% of what the game entails?

I mean, if that’s a deal-breaker for you, I’m confused as to why you’d pick up a game like World of Warcraft in the first place.

Devil’s advocate here, but that’s good. It means less FotM players, it means less smurfing, and it means a more stable ladder and MMR.
Ideally, from a pure competitive Arena point of view, you’d want each player to be associated with one character, not multiple.

Sure. We’ll see how it turns out.

48

i feel like you never actually played arena. If legendary B has an effect which is needed to win against comb X then of course you are forced to get that legendary. Even at 1800 it would feel super awkward to lose games just because you miss one powerful item. At Gladiator level these items decide games.

For not having a disadvantage and playing to your maximal potential. Doesnt matter if you play at 1500, 2000 or 2500 i want my charakter to have the best circumstances so i can focus on gameplay and not on being behind in gear,systems etc.

as i already mentioned there was NEVER a time where i get forced to play THAT MUCH PvE. NEVER BEFORE. I did more PvE in BfA than in 10 years of WoW combined and i dont think Blizz is going to 180 degree change their vision of the game, thats why i am arguing . I really dont get what is so hard to understand here.

it means less ques because there are fewer player who que.

Every argument you bring up really shows that you are yourself not a arenaplayer.

5 Likes
49

Wod pvp gear best, zéro Gear pve in arena

4 Likes
50

Yeah I mean aspiring to be competitive and compete against the best is such a bad thing to aim for.
What is good is patternizing people and say “be on the rating you on and be happy”.
Such an idiotic statement.

51

This is probably where we differ in viewpoints.

I see the gear progression, unlocking Soulbinds, and crafting legendaries, as being part of the gameplay experience.
You do Arena with your initial gear and struggle to win.
You get better gear, go back into Arena, and see the fruition of your new character power.
To me that’s a core aspect of an MMORPG experience. The zero to hero, if you will.

The gear disadvantage you may have, is supposed to be the motivation to go out and get some upgrades.
Now, I can understand if someone thinks they have to put in an unreasonable amount of effort to get those upgrades. But so far, as it relates to PvP, I don’t see the big injustice. But agree to disagree.

What you seem to want is a standard multiplayer PvP experience, void of all those RPG progression elements that feel more like burdens to be endured than enjoyed.

I’d argue that WoW appears more true to it’s genre in Shadowlands than ever before, and that that’s a good thing. But I am aware you’ll be of the opinion that it’s for the worse, because it goes against your desires.

I guess it’s all a matter of perspective. For what it’s worth, I kind of sympathize with the desire for a straight up competitive multiplayer PvP experience. But it is swimming against the stream.

Not long ago you said you wouldn’t converse with me because of what I wrote.
I would hope you take your own advice more seriously in the future and just mind your own.
I care not for your comments and you care not for mine, so piss off, okay?

52

this is what i dont get… blizzard has made it work in the past! with stuff like resilience, pvp power, or even gear scaling for pvp.
wasnt perfect, but was way better that what we have now.

but they decide to change and make it like vanilla again, where pve gear just beats pvp gear by miles… but why?! why wont use something that worked before?!
are they just stubborn?

back in 2014, holinka said that there were as many pvp queues as pve. we can say this was the peak of pvp for wow, because it was fun and fair (at least when it come to gearing) and when something is fun and fair people will play it!

saying stuff (like some people in these forums like to say) like “well, pvp is a niche so blizzard doesnt care!”
its a niche because they made it a niche!

PVP has ALWAYS been a main part of this game! its part of the faction lore ffs! we had BGs and honor and etc almost since release!

make it fun and fair and people will play it!

4 Likes
53

what you dont seem to understand is that until BfA there was NEVER a time where i have to PvE that much. I didint have to farm azerith, essences or corruptions in pve and going into the shadowlands we will have to farm soulbinds, legendaries, conduits etc.
You cant just say this is part of WoW when it was NEVER LIKE THIS BEFORE IN WOW UNTIL BFA. ITS NOT THE CORE ELEMENT OF WOW. Of course there was sometimes a trinket or a weapon from PvE which was BiS for PvP but thats it.

and why cant i get better gear with playing pvp? Why cant I improve my charakter with playing content i enjoy? Why did they removed that? I was able to do it for 10 years straight.

Idk why you act like i want to change WoW into a new game. I just want old existing, perfectly working systems back to enjoy the game again.

It looks better in Shadowlands but the past 2 years showed that the only thing blizzard really cares about is maximizing playertime and draining the fun out of content. So im super skeptical.

3 Likes
54

I don’t disagree.
I will disagree on it being an unreasonable amount. I don’t think it is, based on the current available information. But I can respect that it varies from player to player.

I’ll ask you a question in return if I may?
Now that you know Shadowlands will have all these Covenant systems and Torghast and legendary items and so on, how are you going to play the expansion?

I think Blizzard’s design for WoW - currently - is to have a cohesive game where the individual parts connect and feel part of the same whole, rather than being independent and isolated aspects.
That’s bread & butter MMORPG design.
Personally I don’t mind it. Some do.

55

stop talking with jito already this guy is afraid to admit blizzard destroyed their game cuz he wants his mvp or something

1 Like
56

i know the question wasn’t for me, but the problem with these convoluted systems is they force you to make content you dont want to. Blizzard said that if a conduit is better for PVP it will probably come from PVP, which for me is a big plus when comparing to the systems we have now.
i hope the same applies for legendary weapon? but i doubt… we will have to farm Torghast for sure…

57

Definitely. How much is probably the question. Broixz is aspiring for high-end competition and wants multiple legendaries, and who knows how much effort will go into that.
I’m a casual scrub and will Iikely be content using my initial, preferred legendary for everything.

I don’t think everyone is like me, and I don’t think everyone is like Broixz either. But I do think the competitive min/max play style some players pursue is also the most demanding of all - it requires the most effort.
Should Blizzard then accommodate the competitive min/max play style, or should players embark upon it at their own peril? I err toward the latter, but those who do it want the former. No interests versus personal interests, I guess.

59

I don’t think there are any rules against playing WoW naked.

Off with the pants!!

62

Yeah," just" the pvp community…
It makes no sense and it actually ain’t cohesive nor coherent at all.
The game is old, so it has a past.
That past is of success, the new dev team and game director should look back at what made the game reach 12 million subs and around 500k players alone in eu arenas.
It’s not only a flawed logic but it’s just not working.
I can say this about other game features, but if the game ships as it is or close to it they lose players to a 14 year old game in tbc…
Going to be super fun to watch them justify why pvp ladders are more active there than on live.

4 Likes
63

But that’s not true.
Every time a PvP topic is posted here, it’s an echo chamber and the same 20-30 names will voice the same opinion.
But once that opinion gets thrown over to the General forum and you present the same PvP topic there, it’s a lot more divided. I read your PvP stats topic there, which is a good example.
So be careful with that assumption. This place here is a very small forum, with very few players, who tend to think very much alike. And in a broader sense, the vocal English-speaking PvP community is somewhat aligned, if only because it is the loudest.

But the release of WoW Classic goes to show that whilst older game design still appeals to some, it also becomes a turn-off to others who find it dated.
It’s not an all-inclusive deal anymore to just do the old stuff over again.

As far as WoW’s past success goes, then more can be attributed to business strategy than game design. Millions of people didn’t buy WoW because Arenas were a feature in TBC. Millions of people bought WoW because Blizzard are god-damn geniuses when it comes to aggressive market expansion and market penetration, releasing the game in China and Latin-America and quickly localizing it to a number of European languages. That fast and aggressive investment in markets is what drove the subscriber numbers to high peak early on.

But Blizzard don’t care.
Both Classic and Retail are theirs. It’s money in their pockets regardless of what version players choose to play.
If Blizzard were concerned about subscriber numbers and wanted to increase them, they could slash box product prices or subscription costs and get a huge influx of new players immediately. But they don’t, because it’s not their business strategy to have as many subscribers as possible above all else. Their business strategy is to maintain its existing customer base and increase the revenue gained through it – which they successfully have. Their revenues keep going up. That Online Store, those Deluxe expansion versions, and Allied Races spurring extra Race Change purchases and what not…and the WoW Token. That’s their business strategy: That the people who already play WoW also pay more.

To the playerbase it’s an important metric to know how many people play WoW.
To Blizzard the important metric is how high revenue WoW generates with the players it has. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1 million players or 10 million players so long as the revenue is up. And it is. One guy buying 1 WoW Token is the equivalent of an extra subscriber in terms of revenue.