Slice and Dice is a bad ability

[Eazye-azuremyst]

Every time I wake up I hope to see that Slice and Dice is deleted in the BlizzPosts about Shadowlands changes .

It was deleted back then for a good reason. SnD is boring. It’s no fun. It’s just one ability that makes you attack faster and increases your energy regeneration.

But that’s not all!
In before someone write “but it’s just one button!”, yes it is but it has other consequences:
-the Rogues damage needs to be balanced around it,

What does that mean?
For example Assassination:
You want to do damage? First you need to use garrote, gather combo points, spend it on Slice and Dice, gather them once more, spend it on the rupture, then you can actually try to do some damage(which is still lower compared to other classes!).
So - before doing any damage you have to use some kind of sequence that takes much longer than any other class… and end up doing less damage(I am talking about the current SL simulations outcomes).

Keep in mind that also is crucial in the target-swapping. In PvP almost every class can just change their target and do their job(DPS them down!), while Assassination can’t. It needs that kind of build up and preparation before actually doing damage.

Assassination in SL is just a spec that tests you how many Dots/buffs can you actually maintain before going mad.

Garrote, Rupture, SnD, keeping eye on the Covenant ability(Need to refresh Bone Spike? Need to use exact number of Combo Points to actually do damage with the Echoing Reprimand?).

Using Shiv(aka Toxic Blade) and wanted to put as many Envenoms as possible during that little burst window? No no! SnD/Rupture/Garrote is falling and you have to refresh them!

Same goes for Subtlety and Outlaw. The first one is kinda fine(better than before), but Outlaw? Why changing something that works fine?

[Evolixe-kazzak]

@Eazye-azuremyst

-the Rogues damage needs to be balanced around it,

You mean like with literally any ability that ever gets introduced for any class whatsoever?

@Eazye-azuremyst

So - before doing any damage you have to use some kind of sequence that takes much longer than any other class… and end up doing less damage(I am talking about the current SL simulations outcomes).

DoT classes have it way, way worse. You don’t NEED to apply Rupture to every target, especially not if it isn’t going to last the duration of it.

THAT is the depth of these abilities, you being able to decide when they are and aren’t worth it. And THAT is where you’ll be able to tell the difference down the line between someone that knows their stuff and someone that doesn’t.

@Eazye-azuremyst

Keep in mind that also is crucial in the target-swapping. In PvP almost every class can just change their target and do their job(DPS them down!), while Assassination can’t. It needs that kind of build up and preparation before actually doing damage.

So then maybe its time for another spec to become dominant in PvP other than Assassination. And SnD doesn’t magically dissapear when you switch to a different target.

All these complaints about SnD can be brought down to one thing: Complexity.

You argue that you’re going to do “less damage” in xy and z instance. But the truth of it is that the spec is to be built around that expectation and your managing of those specific instances is what is supposed to set you apart from the next Rogue.

And for that, I applaud blizzard.
We need more ways to set ourselves apart, not less.

[Fydrin-argent-dawn]

I hate SnD i hated it back in the day and was one of the reason why i didn’t play my rogue much before it got deleted and now that its back i guess its time to find another class to play.

I would not mind if SnD was just one spec specific spell but did they really have to soil all rogue specs with that crap.

[Eazye-azuremyst]

@Evolixe-kazzak

You mean like with literally any ability that ever gets introduced for any class whatsoever?

Yes. But about the consequences of balancing it out around SnD you could read below in the same post.

@Evolixe-kazzak

DoT classes have it way, way worse. You don’t NEED to apply Rupture to every target, especially not if it isn’t going to last the duration of it.

I don’t agree at all. Other classes don’t need to use combo points and energy to actually put DoTs, it’s just one click for each ability for them.

@Evolixe-kazzak

THAT is the depth of these abilities, you being able to decide when they are and aren’t worth it. And THAT is where you’ll be able to tell the difference down the line between someone that knows their stuff and someone that doesn’t.

Legion was like that. It was when you actually had to pool energy for the Kingsbane higher damage. Right now it’s just maintaining buffs/debuffs. It’s no brainer, you just have to put them on enemies and SnD on yourself. Nothing more.

@Evolixe-kazzak

So then maybe its time for another spec to become dominant in PvP other than Assassination. And SnD doesn’t magically dissapear when you switch to a different target.

It’s not about Assassination being non-dominant in PvP, even if it was - what’s the deal? If it’s OP then just play it.
The point of the part you did quote is that Assassination has hardest swapping target in the entire WoW in PvP… and SnD is just making it worse because if it’s going to fall - you have to refresh it and then actually put bleeds on your target.

@Evolixe-kazzak

All these complaints about SnD can be brought down to one thing: Complexity.

You argue that you’re going to do “less damage” in xy and z instance. But the truth of it is that the spec is to be built around that expectation and your managing of those specific instances is what is supposed to set you apart from the next Rogue.

Trying to maintain buffs/debuffs is just no fun. It’s a mechanical no-brainer… The spec is currently WORST from the entire rogue arsenal(of course, of course - something always have to be worst, but Assassination is worse by a huge margin compared to the other two). Especially in the matter of flow and DPS done. The spec just got more complex while being less rewarding.
(there are some YT videos about that, especially in the “Shadowlands Rogue Freedback thread”)

@Evolixe-kazzak

We need more ways to set ourselves apart, not less.

So that’s the reason why they brought back SnD for every spec?

[Evolixe-kazzak]

@Eazye-azuremyst

So that’s the reason why they brought back SnD for every spec?

Makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
I felt like the absence of SnD made the whole class bland. To a degree anyway.

[Grobo-outland]

I too hope SnD will be removed because it does not make sense to have it on all three specs.

Issues with SnD as Assassian rogue:

*It dont fit as class fantasy - remember Assa. rogue is build around poisons and CC
*Since SnD adds nice amount of overall dmg then whole spec is balanced with it so it makes other abilities weaker
*It one annoying uptimer to keep eye on
*Rogue should offer burst dmg(class fantasy and historically in prev. expansions) but SnD makes just opposite
*Adding SnD as base talent for all 3 specs was lazy way to fill holes

[Kaldea-magtheridon]

SnD isn’t an ability, which requires skill to use. It’s just a matter of tracking it. However, it has some significant effects on how it feels to play the game. All of the positive things of it could’ve just as easily been tied into other mechanics and skills.

SnD adds significant ramp up time, and it slows down the rotation. As its benefits are passive, you as a Player don’t really get any feedback from the game, besides it taking longer for things to die. Unless you check logs, you can’t really tell how SnD is improving your DPS.

SnD is a passive ability. After activating it, you don’t have to do anything to benefit from it. Usually that kind of abilities are Cooldowns, but this is a rotational ability, and it severely lacks in fun and it doesn’t engage you. It feels utterly unrewarding to use. Active abilities, like Envenom, Rupture, the old Kingsbane and many more, when you push those buttons, the game will immediately start giving you feedback, be it by having that DoT tick, deal some instant damage and so on.

The only thing SnD has going for it is nostalgia, and that’s what Classic is for. It is a totally outdated and redundant design for an ability for the modern game.

So, let’s say we remove SnD, what would be the consequenses:

• less ramp up time, less upkeep.
• all the benefits of SnD would be tied into other mechanics and abilities. This could mean buffing Direct Damage Abilities like Envenom, Mutilate, Ambush, and possibly even DoTs like Rupture and Garrote could be buffed. Energy Regen from Venomous Wounds could be buffed.
• more emphasis on Active damage abilities, which would change our damage profile from roughly 75% coming from passive sources, into something closer to 50%, depending on tuning.
• more direct feedback from the game, a more engaging and visceral feeling when playing.
• stronger emphasis on skill, as your efficiency is more about you actually doing something, and not just standing close enough for autoattacks to hit.

What I actually think would make Assassination more fun would be to make Blindside a baseline ability. This would add a bit of unpredictability into the rotation, and it would reward good play.

[Hexelyion-aggramar (Hexelyion)]

Sounds like someone doesn’t know their spell priority.

You don’t dump all combo spenders that you have available on a target that dies in 20 seconds. That’s like reapplying a dot 2 seconds before the target dies.

You prioritise based on how fast they die and how many targets you have. It also depends on your play style.

Do you spread bleeds and venoms on multiple targets and let the dots finish them or do you stick to one and then move into another?

You have to adapt to the situation and multiple finishers give you the choice to do that, instead of having a standard rotation for everything (like DH for example).

[Eazye-azuremyst]

@Evolixe-kazzak

Makes perfect sense doesn’t it?

No, it doesn’t. Because we went from the “spec fantasy” where every spec was almsot completely different, to the point where we have the same abilities. I am strongly against that.

@Kaldea-magtheridon

What I actually think would make Assassination more fun would be to make Blindside a baseline ability. This would add a bit of unpredictability into the rotation, and it would reward good play.

Exactly. Everything you wrote make perfect sense and I totally agree with you.

@Hexelyion-aggramar

Sounds like someone doesn’t know their spell priority.

Considering my progress, I doubt that. Anyway, it’s not about one’s knowledge about the spec, it’s about the spec itself. Arguments ad hominem in this case are useless.

@Hexelyion-aggramar

You don’t dump all combo spenders that you have available on a target that dies in 20 seconds. That’s like reapplying a dot 2 seconds before the target dies.

You prioritise based on how fast they die and how many targets you have. It also depends on your play style.

Of course, but that’s not always the case. Especially in PvP, in which you would need to have some extent of the knowledge to be able to comprehend the problem.

@Hexelyion-aggramar

You have to adapt to the situation and multiple finishers give you the choice to do that, instead of having a standard rotation for everything (like DH for example).

As I wrote above, it’s also problem in PvP which is far more dynamic and requires totally different approach. DH is a bad example, because it doesn’t use Energy/combo points and it has like 4-5 buttons to choose from. Especially in the pre-patch where their AoE rotation is even more simplified than before. I know what I am talking about because I’ve got an alt DH that I’ve been using mostly for >15 M+ keys and casual 12/12 HC raiding.

[Hexelyion-aggramar (Hexelyion)]

@Eazye-azuremyst

to the point where we have the same abilities. I am strongly against that.

Ah so that’s your real pet peeve.

Good thing we got that sorted.

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Eazye-azuremyst

Legion was like that. It was when you actually had to pool energy for the Kingsbane higher damage. Right now it’s just maintaining buffs/debuffs. It’s no brainer, you just have to put them on enemies and SnD on yourself. Nothing more

If you think you don’t have to pool energy on SL, at least with S1 stats, you lack some Assassination knowledge.

@Eazye-azuremyst

Assassination has hardest swapping target in the entire WoW in PvP

That, my dear, is not true. While some specs, such as Sub, have better swapping power Assassination is really, really strong in that regard. It has been in BfA as well. And there is no difference between SL and BfA in terms of swapping. There are two possibilities :

• you just swap like that for spread pressure, without killing immediately. Ib that case, you already have SnD up, swapping won’t remove it, and you just go the other targets, Kidney, apply DoTs, and start doing damage. In many instances you want to have the target already DoT’ed up as Assassination anyways so, you might not even need to reapply them right away !
• you want to swap and kill in seconds as the target is vulnerable. In that situation, you WILL NOT apply Rupture and you WILL NOT apply SnD if it’s falling off because you only have a few GCDs to kill during, say, your Kidney, and you can’t afford 2 that to nothing. Because, lets face it, applying Rupture to someone you want to kill under 6s is totally stupid, and you will have enough energy to spam abilities without applying SnD (unless you swap at 0 but hey, don’t be bad). And that’s even why assa was so good at killing people in a swap in BfA. You’d basically do step kidney, leaving you five other GCDs duribg your stun, Toxic Blade Mutilate Mutilate Envenom Envenom. That’s 5. That’s insane damage. That doesn’t require Rupture. That won’t require SnD.

@Kaldea-magtheridon

SnD is a passive ability. After activating it, you don’t have to do anything to benefit from it.

@Kaldea-magtheridon

Active abilities, like Envenom, Rupture

When I press Rupture, once it’s done, I don’t have to do anything to benefit from it. Same with Garrote. It just passively ticks and passively gives me energy.

Actually, aside from Envenom (because of the buff it gives), Toxic Blade and Vanish, there is no ability as Assassination that is not passive and forgotten after being pressed. Abilities like King’s Bane were good because they changed that.

@Kaldea-magtheridon

stronger emphasis on skill, as your efficiency is more about you actually doing something, and not just standing close enough for autoattacks to hit.

Once again, that’s not really true. Without SnD, and accounting for everything else in your list, the only difference in terms of gameplay would be one less button to press every 36s. Once every 36 GCDs. Assa damage distribution might be changed but aside from that GCD the gameplay would be the exact very same. So, you actually make the class less complex as, one, you have one less thing to track, and lets face it those who complain about having to press one spell every 36s just aren’t used to looking at their buffs when it’s super important, and are frustrated to lose damage because of that… hum… the word is too strong but I’ll say incompetency as I don’t have another word right now, so they complain instead of improving in that field, and most importantly, two, you remove some decision making. That decision making is what separates good players from bad players. If you only have to apply 2 dots and spam 2 other spells it’s boring there is nothing to do, nothing to look at, nothing that the average 8yo kid cannot do. Just tell him press red buttons, then blue then green, if red disappears press again, he will do it, and do it well. With abilities like SnD you have yo preplan more, because you will face situations where DoTs will fade, SnD will fade, Envenom buff will fade. So, you have to plan AHEAD, taking pandemic windows into account (Rupture and also SnD do pandemic) to make sure you always have everything without wasting a second of damage. It will also force you to CHOOSE, and your DPS will depend on that. Say you go away for a mechanic or get CC’ed or whatever then you have to choose what to reapply first, what to abandon for a bit, and that will always depend. Big mastery proc for 10 more seconds ? Probably Rupture first, even a 2 CP one. Shiv still going on the target and you play MP and Lethal Poisons ? SnD first, at least 1 CP to cover Shiv, then Rupture, then SnD with more CPs. Decisions like that. And if someone chooses wrong they will lose damage.

Of course that requires playing ahead, having awarness about your buffs and debuffs, and knowing what you play and why, when most people are bad at playing ahead, are unaware of stuff and copy paste builds withiut understanding the depths of them. And so, they complain because they can’t understand why SnD makes the spec less straightforward and super boring with nothing to do akd no choice and they lose damage and they get mad.

@Kaldea-magtheridon

What I actually think would make Assassination more fun would be to make Blindside a baseline ability. This would add a bit of unpredictability into the rotation, and it would reward good play.

That would be cool. Maybe even add back the version we had in WoD instead of the SL one ? I really liked the semi execute part of it.

[Eazye-azuremyst]

@Hexelyion-aggramar

Ah so that’s your real pet peeve.

Good thing we got that sorted.

I have no idea what does that mean. But thanks for constructive criticism and usefull respond. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@Shadenox-ravencrest

If you think you don’t have to pool energy on SL, at least with S1 stats, you lack some Assassination knowledge.

Yes, I lack SL Assassination knowledge. But I am writing from the pre-patch perspective.

@Shadenox-ravencrest

That, my dear, is not true. While some specs, such as Sub, have better swapping power Assassination is really, really strong in that regard. It has been in BfA as well. And there is no difference between SL and BfA in terms of swapping.

I wouldn’t say so. As I wrote above – while SnD falling off, you’d need to think about between refreshing it or putting bleeds on your enemy and as far as I know SnD is a bigger DPS/DMG gain than bleeds right now.

It’s much easier to change targets in BFA than in the pre-patch. I know that the difference may be miniscule, but it’s still there.

@Shadenox-ravencrest

• you just swap like that for spread pressure, without killing immediately. Ib that case, you already have SnD up, swapping won’t remove it, and you just go the other targets, Kidney, apply DoTs, and start doing damage. In many instances you want to have the target already DoT’ed up as Assassination anyways so, you might not even need to reapply them right away !

That works most of the times, but not always. Sometimes I avoid putting bleed on my enemies, because some of the CCs of my partners won’t work on them.

@Shadenox-ravencrest

• you want to swap and kill in seconds as the target is vulnerable. In that situation, you WILL NOT apply Rupture and you WILL NOT apply SnD if it’s falling off because you only have a few GCDs to kill during, say, your Kidney, and you can’t afford 2 that to nothing. Because, lets face it, applying Rupture to someone you want to kill under 6s is totally stupid, and you will have enough energy to spam abilities without applying SnD (unless you swap at 0 but hey, don’t be bad). And that’s even why assa was so good at killing people in a swap in BfA. You’d basically do step kidney, leaving you five other GCDs duribg your stun, Toxic Blade Mutilate Mutilate Envenom Envenom. That’s 5. That’s insane damage. That doesn’t require Rupture. That won’t require SnD.

Okay, that’s a good example. But I still feel lacking bleeds feels weird.

As I wrote above, I just don’t like having a bonus thing to maintain, in both PvP and PvE, it just feels like I am not playing right spec. I’d rather have more dynamic things to focus, such as kingsbane, than another bland ability.
I mean it’s fine, it’s not complicated thing to do. I’ll still do damage, I’ll still press once in 36s SnD button etc. They could even put 5 another buffs/debuffs and if I had to I’d click them. I just don’t find that ability fun at all, it’s a video game after all.

Anyway, it’s really nice to see you here on the official forums Shadenox. I’ve been following you on YT since… a long time?
Thanks to your guide I one-shotted whole Horrific Vision with 5 masks without any problems… Still waiting for the Subtlety guide!

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Eazye-azuremyst

Yes, I lack SL Assassination knowledge. But I am writing from the pre-patch perspective.

Well, then you have to understand that we are not at max level, while the game certainly is tuned around that, we have access to borrowed powers from BfA (essences and traits) that massively impact classes, and most importantly we have end of expansion stats.

All of that will go away. You can’t make a reasoning asking for changes to a spec when it’s on prepatch with end of expansion stat distribution with soon to be removed borrowed powers.

Look further ! SnD has some nice interactions with SL conduits, although they just nerfed them, and, although, yes, it’s still very passive.

@Eazye-azuremyst

I wouldn’t say so. As I wrote above – while SnD falling off, you’d need to think about between refreshing it or putting bleeds on your enemy and as far as I know SnD is a bigger DPS/DMG gain than bleeds right now.

It’s much easier to change targets in BFA than in the pre-patch. I know that the difference may be miniscule, but it’s still there.

Well, I experienced differently both in BfA and in the Prepatch (which is actually much more fun than BfA PvP). Once again, for a kill swap you will not need nor want to waste time applying all your buffs and debuffs as you aim to kill faster than the time they need to be useful. And if you don’t swap to kill super soon then SnD should be up anyways, and applying it will not be a waste as the fight will go on.

As for the CC of your friends one nice thing to do is go bleed the guy while he is on CC DR (that way you won’t bother your ally) and then you have some time to swap, or at least you give yourself two possible targets for the remainder of the DR.

SnD, you are right, is one more thing to do that may make your swaps weaker without it than with it, but, you didn’t have it at all in BfA and you could swap just as well. Just don’t reapply it instantly if you can’t spare the GCDs, or do if you can. Again, having this spell back gives us some decision making. We just have to make the right one for a specific situation instead of doing some scripted stuff ! I do like that. As you said, I would have preferred stuff like King’s Bane by veeeery far, but in my opinion SnD and the decisions it forced if you want to be at peak efficiency is a good thibg as it will sort out people a bit more thab BfA Assa (which was a bit too straightforward).

Sub guide I should do, but I’m having a great deal of fun actually playing the spec so I did not find the time yet, sadly !

[Evolixe-kazzak]

@Shadenox-ravencrest

Of course that requires playing ahead, having awarness about your buffs and debuffs, and knowing what you play and why, when most people are bad at playing ahead, are unaware of stuff and copy paste builds withiut understanding the depths of them.

Finally someone that understands, thank you

[Yuiki-earthen-ring]

they can swamp places with SAD and DFA .

[Vyi-defias-brotherhood]

@Evolixe-kazzak

DoT classes have it way, way worse. You don’t NEED to apply Rupture to every target, especially not if it isn’t going to last the duration of it.

THAT is the depth of these abilities, you being able to decide when they are and aren’t worth it. And THAT is where you’ll be able to tell the difference down the line between someone that knows their stuff and someone that doesn’t.

I wan’t even imagine, what would become in young rogue community, if Expose Armor would be came back… A havoc I tell you, a havoc “What is this?”, “Another useless skill I have to press it before I do dmg?? Nonsense!”, “I hate SnD and Expose Armor!”… xD

[Yuiki-earthen-ring]

u simple stack Mastery and Ver as Assassin rogue bouth statsh increases ur damage exempel a level 45 assassin rogue can have 120% mastery 70% Ver what increses the poison damage 190%.

or u can go level 10 and spam ilands 5000 times to u get tokens to get a ilvl 36 epic set and get 260% mastery and 80% Ver and do 320% damage with poisons alone …

[Shadenox-ravencrest (Shadenox)]

@Yuiki-earthen-ring

u simple stack Mastery and Ver as Assassin rogue

Uh, no.

@Yuiki-earthen-ring

level 45 assassin rogue

@Yuiki-earthen-ring

or u can go level 10 and

Happily, the game isn’t meant to play with maxed out stats without being at max level. Incredible, I know.

[Shwosh-draenor]

This post is an oppinion, not a fact.

Spam mutilate while rupture is up is no better than a DH rotation.

You are not losing your burst because SnD is only worth it in longer fights while envenom is the opposite.

Calculate the time of both rupture and SnD while you are fighting and understand if it’s worth it or not makes it much harder.

The harder a class is makes it easier to determinate who is the better player.

@Eazye-azuremyst

It was deleted back then for a good reason.

When they made the game more noob friendly with for example the introduction of the DH class.

@Eazye-azuremyst

Keep in mind that also is crucial in the target-swapping.

Spamming FoK could almost even a newborn baby do.

@Eazye-azuremyst

but Outlaw? Why changing something that works fine?

Players hates rng and roll the bones is just that.

[Eazye-azuremyst]

@Shwosh-draenor

This post is an oppinion, not a fact.

Of course.

@Shwosh-draenor

Spam mutilate while rupture is up is no better than a DH rotation.

No, that’s a false. DH rotation is easiest rotation I’ve ever seen(I have paladin/warrior/druid/dh/dk alts). DH is by far most easiest. It doesn’t require as much preparation as rogue one. It doesn’t have combo points and it was even more dumbed down in pre-patch.

@Shwosh-draenor

The harder a class is makes it easier to determinate who is the better player.

One more bonus buff/debuff tracking that you click once in 36s doesn’t determinate who is a better player and is not a good indicator.

@Shwosh-draenor

When they made the game more noob friendly with for example the introduction of the DH class.

That’s also false because SnD was removed in WoD, not in the Legion.

@Shwosh-draenor

Spamming FoK could almost even a newborn baby do.

Target swapping doesn’t mean using one AoE ability.

@Shwosh-draenor

Players hates rng and roll the bones is just that.

RTB rng does not affect a one’s competency and good players knew how to roll it. I’d just quote you… The harder a class is makes it easier to determinate who is the better player