So a new AV complain

Not when Alliance never grit their teeth like the Horde did. They just started crying about the map instead and gave up on trying more than once or twice every couple of months. The rest is just a bunch of forfeits.

The reason it’s called a boot camp is because the Horde had to keep “upping their game” to increase what little they could manage vs. the premades over, and over, and over and over again, and so on.

They aimed to get more and more vs. the premades. While Alliance just started bending over when premades got mitigated, and became incredibly disorganized.

That’s the difference. And you can thank the segregation for that. Horde were all together from the start, with the meta forming and spreading in an organic fashion, while the Alliance had a clear split between the premades and the solo queuers.

You literally only understand map imbalance and nothing else? No, once again you over simplify it. All of it was literally going on at the same time. Premades were very common long before the turtle meta really took form. The “turtle” back then was not at all what it is today btw. Back then the horde would actually allow the alliance to get south in most games against pugs. Guess what? Because queue times weren’t super long back then they actually wanted the game to end pretty fast. Not like today.

Sure, when alliance pugs were losing more, due to the horde defending, more of them probably did go to join premades but it is also the case that alliance pugs really started to SUCK because they were lacking their best players who were all in the premades already. After some time alliance pug basically meant free win for horde and no, not because of map imbalance.

Got nothing to say about this, but please Bodiesan:

was and were are in the past tense, but they are used differently. Was is used in the first person singular (I) and the third person singular (he, she, it). Were is used in the second person singular and plural (you, your, yours) and first and third person plural (we, they).

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Yeah, so in reality you think certain players play Alliance and other players play Horde. People of stronger mindset play Horde. The feeble minded play Alliance.

No, never said that. However, people fall easily for propaganda and general social norms. And horde and alliance have had very different social norms manifesting in PvP, and AV in particular.

So as described in the post you only quoted that tiny part of, Horde went through very different experiences than the Alliance did. And thus, the norms as a result became very different.

What I meant is that the source of the whole mess is the map imbalance. Both at the beginning when horde lost most of the rush games and later when alliance lost all the turtle games.
Everything else is a consequence of the map imbalance: if one side have a meta that cannot be countered by the other that naturally leads to the loser side to avoid that game, since nobody plays a game where he has no control over the outcome.
This cannot be fixed by changing the reward system, because even if all alliance rankers would start to sign up to AV would not change the simple fact that the alliance team has to be twice as strong as the horde to even have a chance to win.
But the map cannot be fixed either without re-designing it from scratch, because any minor modification would just swing the unfair map advantage from one side to the other.

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I am saying everything is not a consequence of the map imbalance. There’s so much more going on and you are over simplifying it. We have gone over this before but you keep making those same claims…

I disagree. Making the initial caves GYs of last resort, available to a faction only if they have lost their 3 starting GYs is a near perfect solution.

Solves all major imbalances without even touching map layout.

Change my mind :slight_smile:

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I would also increase rewards for alliance to make players come back to AV. Moving the cave won’t make that big impact if alliance players don’t come back.

Why on earth are people talking about the cave. The cave will N E V E R be moved in Classic AV. Just the idea about “moving” any cave, anywhere is totally extreme and absurd to be honest.

Tweaking spawn rates and where you spawn and stuff like is somewhat reasonable. Changing the rewards and tweaking the queue system, perhaps allowing premades on both sides, stuff like that CAN be done. Moving any cave is totally out of the question.

I’m trying to explain the order of events to make people understand what caused what.
The 1.12 nerfed AV has never been together with an active ranking race, since the 1.12 AV is not a vanilla AV but a pre-tbc AV. So at that time the ranking race was already over and nobody was interested in long lasting turtle games with this map, that’s why the map unbalance has never come up as a problem.
From this point of view you are right, the map unbalance combined with the ranking system made all this mess.
However changing the ranking system or just the honor / hour rate of AV would not change the current winrate, because the map also needs to be changed to Alliance could not be cut off completely from south by horde simply soft capping SH GY.

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I understand that but you keep claiming that map imbalance caused EVERYTHING, lol.

Right… Sure… Except… Ok, so let’s follow that scenario a bit to provide some better context:
Let’s say Alliance have been “cut off” from the south because of the IWB choke point.
Let’s say Horde is progressing north. Horde has made it into DB.

Horde is now split between DB and the choke point, presumably. While Alliance have all 40 players up north, within a very short distance to DB even if there are those without the trinket to recall.

So what if, just what if, Alliance would have, let’s say 15 people defending. Let’s assume the setup of these 15 is chosen well, so they do it good. Having 15 people stall can work wonders sometimes.

Let’s then assume the 25 people remaining rush south. Now, let’s assume the Horde has at least 25 people up north at DB, with max 15 defending the IWB choke point. 25 should beat the 15 fairly easily, yeah?

Ok, so in this scenario, Horde should still win just by a pure numbers advantage, eventually.
But there’s a way to play it smarter by the Alliance.

Alliance have those 25 progress south, they skip IB GY because it’s kind of silly to wait for that at that point in the BG.
So they do a quick cap of FW GY and steamroll the Horde base with presumably close to nobody defending.

Alliance can at this point send, let’s say 10-15 people back to DB with the recall trinket. Heck, they can even send them back earlier, depending on how far the Horde will go to defend and how much the pressure is up top.

So at this point, Alliance would have the boss along with 25-30 people recalling and defending, of which they ress with 20 people each 30-second ress wave (I mean, you keep emphasizing how that is such an advantage, so you should be experts at using that advantage by now), which should make it possible to prolong the game long enough to secure Horde’s south. Unless Horde decides to send more players back to defend, that is.

If the Horde does defend, then it means their numbers, which in this scenario haven’t been able to win yet even with their full offensive force up top from the beginning, would reduce, and therefore make it possible for those 25-30 Alliance players to surely push them back with what’d presumably be a number advantage. Should even make it possible to basically “reset” the BG.

Even if you stick by your mantra that “Alliance can’t win”, then if you make it impossible to lose it’ll just come down to a competition of wills. And the side with the stronger willpower wins by default after enough time passes.
And that’s assuming Horde even does defend at that point, which I’d guess not many would do. “Zugzug” means to push after all.

It’s just a mindset issue and lack of social cohesion. As explained in the many posts above and the many threads repeating the same stuff.

PS:
The scenario I wrote in this post is presuming strict numbers and coordination by both Alliance and Horde, for the most part.
Keep in mind that automatically random matchmade 40-man teams are in general more chaotic by nature. It was more a scenario meant to illustrate a point about defending strong points and attacking weak points in order to make use of advantages, instead of just giving up. A randomly matchmade 40-man team will undoubtedly have those who plays in a more whimsical manner quite often, so for it to play out like in this scenario is never a guarantee. But you can, as the scenario illustrates, definitely try harder than just blaming the map.

No, it’s exactly what you are saying. If you don’t like that then I suggest you take a good hard look at what you’re advocating.

It’s more nuanced than what you’re making it out to be.

Simply put, Horde bonded with no segregation and rose to the challenges, while Alliance segregated their player base queuing for AV and as a result became fractured. A fracture that never healed. Generally speaking, the Alliance rankers simply gave up on AV as soon as premades were mitigated. That segregation was never undone.

You do realise that you keep insisting on making yourself out to be a victim every time, right? Martyr complex is a thing.

Your tactics tells that you have never played alliance in AV.

IWB choke point can be easily blocked with 15 vs 25, because horde has 20-30 seconds reinforcement and alliance has 1.5 minute. So let’s say that the fight is 1:1 and after the first rush all 15 horde defenders are killed and 10 alliance left to attack the SH GY flag.
But then 15 horde resurrects at SH GY and then the fight is 15 vs 10 at the flag. Lets say alliance is luckier or more skilled, and soft cap SH GY. It takes no more than few minutes to horde recapture SH GY, because horde reinforcement from SF GY is still faster than alliance from SP GY or the cave. Even if the alliance attack team is stronger, all that horde needs is 5 more from the attack team to help out SH.

So if alliance lose SH GY without having a GY somewhere south then there’s absolutely nothing to be done.

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Not caused everything, but the starting point of everything.

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Riight… Except… No. A numbers advantage of 10 people should definitely beat the side with less, in an “even fight” (an “even” fight is almost never a thing, but as mentioned above, that scenario was just meant to illustrate a point).

You don’t seem to understand how it works. 10 extra players equals 10 extra globals, each global meaning X amount of damage and Y amount of healing average per second, which one side has almost twice as much of.
It’s the side with almost twice as much that kills off the side with fewer much faster than even a few dies on the side with more. It’s not that each side kills the same amount of people per second in such a scenario. That’d mean the Horde side is “twice as strong” as you like to say, in that clash, if they’d perform just as good as the side with almost twice as many people.

That’s what it means. If you can’t steamroll with such a huge numbers advantage, then you’re simply bad.

… What? You do know it’s limited to 10, right?

You said this many times:

Did you not mean that? If not, then what?

Yes. The map imbalance what let alliance play the rush game, that made horde switch to turtle and the map is why the horde turtle cannot be not countered.
However the ranking system and the 1.12 AV together what made everything even worse.