Have you ever played 1.12 AV from Alliance side? Have you ever tried your theory in practice?
Horde has 20 sec reinforcement route from SP GY to DB.
Alliance has at least 1 minute reinforcement route from starting cave to IWB choke.
But you are still telling that 25 alliance can wipe 15 horde easier at IWB choke than 25 horde can wipe 15 alliance at DB choke?
For real?
I am grinding rep rights now and all I see is unbelievable unmotivated, bad and afk leechers on Alliance. On the very few occasions we get a full team of motivated players we crush Horde. They are not very good at all, just motivated after a long queue, and they can grind honor for bracket 10-11 pretty reliable in AV.
As a rogue I have to struggle hard to find ONE other rogue/druid to help me kill Lieutenants.
When I ask in chat why people doesn’t defend SH GY at start and then spend 30min defending SP GY, the best answer I have got so far was, “I ressed here”.
The thing is that Alliance can win AV really easy now when the backdoors are closed. Just hold SH GY while going south. If you lose SH GY, then don’t defend SP GY, defend base, ress in cave, recap SH GY when Horde have SP GY, and now you can farm Hord forever at SP GY while choking them at bridge and SH GY. You can hold base forever with like 5 people and the recall trinket… It’s so incredible much more easy to defend Alliance base with recalls than the horde base. But, you need motivated people for that.
It would be so god damn epic to play premades in AV. Horde only have an advantage against unmotivated pugs.
“DB choke”? You mean the bridge? You do know you can recall directly to the aid station flag and boss room entrance with the trinket as Alliance, right?
And I didn’t say they can “wipe 15 horde easier”. I said 15 people can do wonders by stalling. Which is what Horde learned vs. the premades. To NEVER. STOP. RECALLING. EVER!
As explained in the post you replied to, but apparently didn’t read, is that 25 people is supposed to crush 15 people in a straight up clash. Just from the fact of having 10 more people dpsing/healing, which increases the numbers output per second by a lot. If you still lose those fights, then you’re the bad one.
And 25 horde can do the same at DB but with 1/3 of reinforcement route.
With the trinket you just teleport yourself directly into the middle of the 25 horde and got wiped.
Anyway you clearly have no clue how IWB choke works from the other side, it is simply not possible to kill 15 horde at IWB choke with 25 alliance, take SH GY and keep it defended until the timer is up.
They don’t die “instantly” if 15 people recalls at the same time. But they can stall. Exactly as the Horde used to stall. Especially during the pulls, if 15 people recalls at that time then they can really cause some damage.
The trick is to never ever stop recalling. Every ress wave having 15 people recall at the same time eventually can create a dent.
It is simply not possible to kill 15 horde at IWB choke with 25 alliance and take SH GY and keep it defended until the timer is up.
Just try it and you’ll see.
We can actually try it in a Wargame.
Ok, seems this went over your head a bit. I never said Alliance would stop and wait for flag caps in the middle of the map in the scenario, you know? The SH GY node is quite frankly inconsequential in that scenario.
There’s no stopping that train of 25 players until they reach the Horde base.
If the Horde would then react and start sending defenders, well, then they’d lose players up top. Although it would be weird if they would react to the base being assaulted with enough players to counter those 25, in such a scenario.
Although technically true, you leave out so many important details that it’s almost a lie. Premades and queue lengths are other reasons (and possibly bigger reasons) why alliance played rush games and horde started the turtle meta. You can’t just ignore everything that doesn’t have to do with the map just because it doesn’t fit your view (unless you include those in the ranking system?). Anyway, I don’t think we need to go over this anymore because we just keep getting to the same point. Take care!
No, you’re just unwilling to admit you believe Horde players have superior mindset to Alliance players because you know deep down it would be such a silly thing to believe, yet you still believe it even though you know it’s false.
Ok, one last time, it’s more nuanced. And that isn’t what you said.
You’re making it seem like they chose the Alliance because of a mindset type. And Horde chose Horde because of a mindset type.
Which isn’t what I’ve said at all. You should try to read more.
Just to be clear, all I’ve ever said is that a lot of PvEers went Alliance, while a lot of PvPers went Horde. Which is supported by population figures from back then, as well as the discrepancy in queue times back then. (Official population figures is something Blizzard doesn’t release, but the 3rd party sources at the time were showing them to be close to equal across EU (not counting Russian realms)).
But ok, to explain it on a level so even you can understand:
One side, as a collective (I’m not saying everyone is a clone, think of it more like how stereotypes are born when it comes to people from certain countries or parts of a country), has ENDED UP with a loser mindset, BECAUSE of what happened. (For the sake of clarity, this includes the things that caused the massive outcry that led to the early release of BGs in Classic, as well as how premades segregated the player base on the Alliance side by never properly “mixing” with the “lesser” players in the queue, so basically very different perceptions and norms were born because of everything combined as well as their own domino effects.)
Get it yet? At this point I feel like I need to provide a picture book with as few words as possible just to make it possible for you to understand.
By the way, the DETAILS BEHIND THAT CLAIM has been covered time and time again, including in this very thread, but knowing how these types of points in a forum thread tend to go, you’ll probably just end up turning it into a circle by mentioning something that has already been covered.
Which is the problem when people don’t even read the threads they reply in.
But ok, to provide a tl;dr for anyone who can’t be arsed to read this post:
Simply put, Alliance have never outside of premades made it into a social norm to never give up in AV. Ever.
Horde however, formed the social norm to never give up VERY EARLY thanks to the premades. I’m sure everyone who was in a premade back then can remember how many and how often, and also how braindead it used to look like, when Horde would never stop using their recall trinkets when you were at the Horde base. No matter how many times they died, they’d just keep recalling back. Over and over again.
That is the core difference between the two factions. One formed a social norm to never give up in AV, while the other formed the complete opposite, which only became worse as time went on. (While the norm for Horde to never give up was taking proper shape and forming in the first few weeks of AV, the same was occurring for the Alliance non-premades. They were gradually learning to give up, because they always got their fellow “non-premade” players and a lot of the times not even full teams in AV at that same time. Both of which, are thanks to the premades. And because when the premades got mitigated, very few Alliance rankers that used to be in premades even gave AV a try, the win rate rapidly fell. Because basically only those same solo players were left, the same ones who kept losing and learning to give up in AV during the premade times.
And so, because of the mindset already being affected by the shouting “WE’RE THE VICTIMS!!” from the WPvP phase that led to BGs being released early, it just led to the martyr complex growing. You’re always the victim in your eyes.)
But… the map?
Well written post Beware
So you are telling that 25 alliance players at IWB choke point can wipe 15 horde without even a single alliance being killed?
But 25 horde players cannot wipe those 15 alliance defenders the same way?
And all of this never happens because alliance rather plays the victim role instead of trying to win?
Please don’t embarrass yourself.
About the pile of ridiculous psychology bullsh…t you just put together:
There was an experiment lead by Philip Zimbardo called “The Human Zoo”.
They recruited a bunch of people for a TV reality show, but the show itself was a cover up for the social experiment.
They separated the players into a red and blue team completely random and told them that they put the better players into the red team.
Then the players had to do competitive tasks: running race, kenuing, remembering words, etc.
Every game was obviously rigged: the red team had to run and kenu half the lengths, had to remember half the words, etc. The organizers however acted like it was completely normal and when the blue team was complaining, they just ignored them telling that there is nothing wrong with the games.
Obviously the red team has always won.
Then they interviewed the red team members and 90% of them has agreed with the organizers that the game is fair, the blue team is just simply worse and it’s annoying that they are always playing the victim instead of focusing on winning.
The remaining 10% of the red team has admitted that the game favored them but said their advantage was not significant and they would have won without it anyway because they try harder instead of just giving up because of the circumstances.
Sounds familiar?
Not the person I was expecting to make it into a circle next, but ok.
And that’s exactly what horde is doing at IWB choke point. Except at DB horde has half the reinforcement route than alliance has at IWB choke, so eventually horde takes DB faster than alliance get through IWB.
This is exactly what I was talking about: “red team” simply cannot admit that the game is obviously rigged by their favor and trying hard to find any explanation other than that and end up blaming the opponent’s attitude “not trying hard enough”, “always plays the victim”, “we are simply better”, “we would have won without the advantages”, etc.
The same happened at the beginning when both sides rushed: horde could not win the rush games and no alliance admitted that the map has favored their game style but blamed horde not trying hard enough.
Except not really. Recalling into the base, especially during the pulls with the NPCs helping, is not the same as rushing as a 25-player wave into a 15-player “wall”.
You’re making it sound like the Horde would have all those 25 players stand and wait for the 15 players every single ress wave.
You clearly have no clue how IWB choke works.
If an alliance being killed, he is out of the game for 1 or 1.5 minutes, because the reinforcement route is too long. If a horde being killed he’s back in the game in 20 seconds from the SH GY.
So all horde has to do is slowing down alliance’s progress and eventually the numbers even out: 15 alliance vs 15 horde then 10 alliance vs 15 and so on. If a resurrected alliance player rushes to help the attack team, he arrive late and will be outnumbered by the horde defenders. So the attack ends up as a long line of solo players being wiped at the IWB choke.
Or they can regroup and try to do the same with more or less the same results.
The best alliance can do when SH GY is lost and horde is at DB is leave DB undefended, rush through IWB choke and this way half of them can reach galv and kill some LTs before horde finishes the game.
This tactics works only when both teams are at the generals. Then slowing the other team makes sense. However even if alliance successfully get through the IWB choke they have to take all the towers or kill 4 more NPCs at the horde base, while they have to face the same defense as horde has in DB.
You do realize that repeating the same false argument over and over doesn’t make it valid?
It doesn’t need “both teams” to be at the generals for that. It works as long as you never stop recalling. Dents can eventually be made.
Says the person who claimed this:
You’re not exactly showing a lot of credibility or understanding of the way it works. You just desperately keep falling back on the same old “map is the reason why” and so on.
Have you ever tried to get through IWB choke from the alliance side when 15 horde are defending it?
Sure you can slow down the horde attack by recalling for a while but if your attack team just barely reached south it won’t help winning the game.
25 players vs. 15 players. Try that first. You just keep blaming the map, as per usual, right now.