You diden’t listen as you hordies never do. I said it was before he got the crown…
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You’re doing that thing again…
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regardless of past lore, the 2 major powers of azeroth are the horde and alliance and should be relatively equal in power and there shouldn’t be a “good guy” or “bad guy” choice
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if the alliance is the strongest military power on azeroth and is lore wise more powerful than the horde then that’s not the answer, its the problem. both the alliance and horde should be portrayed as equal in power in the game and lore
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the alliance should not have the monopoly on morality, both factions should be portrayed in game and in lore as morally good and morally bad in their own ways
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the alliance as of the start of wow (not including previous lore before vanilla) has had a grand total of 2 kings, 1 dead and he died a hero sacrificing himself to save people
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the horde in that same time has had 4 warchefs, 2 of them have betrayed the horde and have become or likely will become raid bosses, 1 died but it was to some random fellguard and one just got old and left
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right now we have no significantly powerful lore characters, bane is the strongest of the council and he is just a tauren with no real powers, the alliance have anduin, malfurion, tyrande, Jana and many more characters that are lore wise far more powerful than any horde leader
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as for the fight with malfurion and nathanos, tell me why nathanos shouldn’t be able to beat malfurion in a fight? the only answer is that yet again he is more powerful in the lore, which emphasis your previous comment about how the alliance are far more powerful than the horde in terms of the lore which only strengthens the idea that there is an alliance bias in lore.
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so far as horde players we still haven’t attacked stormwind despite having to team up with the alliance to attack our own capitol city twice, in fact orgrimar has been sieged by the alliance twice (and snuck into at least once), undercity twice as well as dazzar alor and the only thing we have to show from this war is the burning down of a tree that no one goes to and the only thing that really ever came from that is just showing how evil the horde is, we didn’t even get to keep darkshore because they just had to have a big david and goliath redemption arc for the night elves.
this is just a side note but what was the point of fighting jana at the end of the dazzar alor raid, I mean we won the fight but she didn’t seem harmed at all, maybe at least a few comments about how lucky she is to be alive or a quest to bring her back to health or a scar on her face or something to show that we actually did anything but get beat as usual.
Well, where exactly? Please point the exact timestamp down?
And this tells us what exactly? We already know since WC3 that Tauren are one of the strongest races. Your posted examples really don’t up (Tauren x “Alliance”) because it’s a cinematic for the purpose of drama. In reality you should actually think of it as a stone-paper-scissor system if you really want to be taken seriously here. I really don’t see the value discussing something so obvious out here unless someone else offers some better input.
Mekkatorque is back up if you would have played both sides by now. Khadgar is neutral but sides with the Alliance-side. This doesn’t take anything away from my point.
The Horde is an unstoppable force due some factors but they lack the technology and sophistication which gives them a severe disadvantage. Lore and questlines have dealt with this in a bigger spectrum. Or if you need further proof during BfA: The whole war campaign was about the preparation in destroying the ships under the nose of the Horde.
I really don’t see the value² in engaging with you any further for now.
This has been already covered by me in the topic. No need to repeat my own words here.
They did in the past but given the current status of the community, the faction imbalance and Danusers interview, they have either no other choice or have a “super duper master plan” which backfired greatly.
Different circumstances every time. Thrall left because the voice actor/writer Chris Metzen had enough of WoW and left the company. Obviously he came back after the absolute backslash disaster BfA was. Like with the Red Shirt Guy at BlizzCon 2019, his “entrance” was staged in 2018 so that some sort of damage control could have happen. Garrosh on the other hand was a writing problem where one writer wanted to force him becoming a villain while his original writer was absolutely against this. This is why you can read quotes from the writing team that Garrosh became either one or simply the best Horde-warchief in other timelines. Our Garrosh just was a sacrificial lamb so the story could move forward. Whatever happened to Vol’jin is beyond my knowledge or why he needed to get rid of - but perhaps it had something to do with the Sylvanas-masterplan they are pushing since then.
Lore-wise there are three characters with either strong powers or are indeed godlike at this point. The Malfurion/Wisperwind-couple fall definitely under that umbrella if you read their wiki-pages and what they have done, accomplished or have been fighting against. Malfurion is especially a tragic character who just got pwned with an axe from behind for such an extreme strong character. Khadgar also is part of the incredible strong characters who have to endure the stupidity of both factions - but in the end, he favors the Alliance, obviously. Most of his lore is connected to the Alliance while he keeps a neutral stance by helping both sides. Jaina is strong but she isn’t near Azshara’s power level. Just because she had a few cinematics who sold her “coolness”, it doesn’t mean she is that strong. In the end, they simply try to have a close 50:50 relationship with the powerlevels, even when it makes with some characters absolutely no sense.
I really don’t need go into detail here, do I? It’s obvious that this was just bad writing and they had to change the scenario and fight four (!) times on the ptr because people hated it and find it a disgrace to the actual power levels. Don’t believe me? Just go back on wowhead and look for them for yourself. The overall situation was just a disaster on so many different levels (community, writers, legacy, lore) that it is an infamous piece of history by now.
But if you really need an answer for this: Why should a single empowered Forsaken be stronger then an by a god empowered High Priestess and a Shan’do taught by a wild god? The true answer is simply stupid writing. You can find these discussion almost everywhere on the internet but the /warcraftlore subreddit still discuss this in greater detail out, including Thrall:
https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/comments/f59oso/why_is_malfurion_so_weak_now/
The topic is less than two months old and people are still upset about this. At the same time we have also fans coming here and defend Nathanos without even understanding why people are upset. Most players see just a HP-gauge and think “yes, he isn’t that strong, it’s absolutely justified because we can bring him down” while not knowing either characters. Most people don’t even know that this is Nathanos’ second body as well and just think he got a face lifting because he became a prominent character. But in truth he got a whole short novel dedicated to how Sylvanas gave him this new look. Have they read the story? Most likely not. And that overall sentiment plagues every aspect of the game because either people don’t know it better and take everything by face value without knowing anything. But back to the topic: Objectively Nathanos and the sacrificed Valykre boon shouldn’t be near that power level to even stand a chance against them. It was just for the sake of fairness in a video game.
Are we not forgetting something? They easily sneaked into Stormwind as well which shouldn’t be possible but because it is a game, it definitely is possible. But it’s more or less established that the Alliance is the superior military power which is why they could sack them several times. In lore this is being explained due the gnomes and dwarves which gives the humans needed edge.
I think you really need to understand how the developers operate the game at this point. It’s never about “winning” or “losing”, it’s about an even score. All the time. No side really wins or losses. You may see Teldrassil being reduced to ashes but then they win everything else. The Horde can sneak into Stormwind while they can’t even sack the city. They stand a chance against the Alliance while not having the same technology at hands. In the end, it really doesn’t matter. But what people absolute despite is how stupidly written the plotlines and characters are.
From a writer’s perspective it was just an establishing moment. Everything before was just gathering up with either Uther or Jaina and investigating the situation as far as I remember. E. Moments simply should show the characteristics of a character within a minimal timeframe so you can see how he works. In Arthas’ case it was to show
- that he is loyal to his country and devotion, taking full responsibilities to keep everyone else safe
- but he was also flawed which is why he took the risk
- he was power-graving because it would help his crusade to protect the kingdom
All his iconig dialogue hints towards this and shows his hidden depth. Arthas was more or less a true moral grey character. He did not commit any “atrocities”, he simply just was a simple but well-written character. Good characters make hard decisions and given the circumstances he was in he sacrificed part of his own humanity by slaughtering as many people as possible because he believed that the current force at this time and point could stop the disaster before it will kill even more people.
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Still hate it that they showed it like that in the game. Lore wise Sylvanas was wining the duel against Malfurion, though that may had been because he was weakened by the burning forest / death of wisps. Saurfang got the deciding hit in but Malfurion was going to lose that anyways. It was probably written that way just so that Malfurion could survive after Elune peacefied Saurfang.
That is doubtful. After all, we have just come out of a faction war that, according to the story, the Horde was winning (Given that Anduin states that he can not stop Sylvanas on multiple cinematics). Yet Khadgar did nothing to help the Alliance in battle. Unless there is some Alliance quest that I missed where he did something like that in bfa.
This would actually all depend on which side had the player character on. In-game it was indeed both but if the story was written in a way where it was Malfurion + Tyrande vs Nathanos + Horde champion, dark rangers, and Valkyrs then the fight would be evened out.
How? In bfa the Horde just lost. Not a tie in any way, they lost the entire war and all but one battle. How is that going even all the time?
For a character to be a true moral grey character they have to commit both good and bad actions. Most of the time, like in the case of Arthas, they do bad believing it will generate more good from it. However no matter how good the outcome you are hoping for the slaughtering of an entire city is an “atrocity” no matter how you look at it.
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People have actually discussed this certain situation in the link I provided in my last posting. She was actually losing because of the dead forsaken (?) around her while she was the last standing one. I don’t remember this seeing inGame but people have been talking about this for sure.
It’s likely been said for the plot. According the lore the Alliance has sacrificed enough so they still have one last push against her before Saurfang duels her.
Khadgar has been simply put on a bus (is an actual trope) because they either did not want to use him (most likely) or had no story which could involve him. In the end, the story existed in its own little hubris if you think about it. Why did the Alliance did not use their space ship either? Because it is bad writing.
It still wouldn’t be. Danuser went into the specifics in the last week interview about the “Champion” and a bit of his power level. In the end, it was just for the plot and rule of cool, as stupid as it sounds. I think they revised the whole scenario at least four times because the overall reception was not only negative but super duper mega phenomenal negative. But ENOUGH of this for now.
The Alliance lost the whole Kul Tiran fleet, which was the sole motivation to win them over, in the first 7.2 cutscene when they chased Nathanos across the sea. It’s always evened out somehow.
Given the circumstances it was justified to some degree. Without his interfering we can only assume things would have been way worse but it’s really hard to tell at this point. But we can only post theories here at this point.
Probably for the same reason that the Horde hasn’t used their giant goblin cannon since Cataclysm. They kind of forgot.
The Zandalari lost their whole fleet and their king the patch before and then the Horde proceeded to lose every single battle (Darkshore / The other one) in the expansion. Still wondering how the loss of a fleet is evening that out?
My point is that no justification changes the fact that slaughtering a city of innocents is an atrocity. Yes, Azeroth is probably better off because of the culling of Stratholme. But it was still an atrocity.
I’ll leave this here for now:
Developers mocking the Alliance-players, was discussed in one of the US-forum topics. Think of it what you want.
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I know this topic is 5 months old, but:
Anybody who thinks bag space, or even item slots or any form of customization matter in modern WoW…
Lol. One thousand times over.
They didn’t forget the cannon, quite the opposite. They said it was going to be fired when discussing 8.2. It just never happened for some reason:
(31 to 32 minutes in)
There was some info datamined for 8.3 confirming that the Kul Tiran Fleet survived. Not sure if it made it to live though:
But here’s how blizzard could solve the faction imballance in shadowlands. Either this sylvanas disband both factions and instead of alliance or horde we can be in the argent crusade or simmilar factions. Or frecking arthas menethil returns as a paladin and empowers The Alliance paladins only so those who view better racials in the horde will have a reason to play Alliance again.
She can’t. She belongs to neither faction, so she isn’t in a position to be able to disband either. Plus, lets give as little attention to that character as is possible, she has quite enough time in the limelight already, and is likely to get more, but really, Sylvanas Fatigue is starting to become a thing…
Awful idea. So your idea is for one of the uber bad guys to come back, and Boost one Faction, and one Class of that Faction, which just so happens to be the Faction and Class that you play?
Ahuh….Suuuure….
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I don’t think arthas would wana empower dks or warlocks
Oh I don’t know, he seemed pretty good at it last time round! 
No not the paladin arthas
Thing is, He’s not going to be in Shadowlands in that way…He says it himself, as he dies, “I see only Darkness” -If- he’s anywhere, he is in The Maw. He did not die a natural death, like the other characters who are stated to be in the Covenants, Uther, Draka, Kael’thas and Cenarius, I believe. Four playable covenants, and four named NPC’s, I think it is pretty likely that’s how it is going down. Uther is obviously going to be in the Bastion Good Boys and Girls Club, Cenarius in the Ardenweald, Kael’thas is in Revendreth, (We know that one for certain) which means Draka is going to be in the Total War club…One major NPC for each Covenant seems to be the plan.
Other people may make cameo’s, but I doubt they will have a major impact.
To include Arthas would actually ruin his story. Utterly ruin it. He’s pretty much WoW’s ‘Darth Vader’. He was the shining hope, turned bad, went -very- bad, and at the very end as he died his True Death, has a few last words where he actually seems to be himself again.
That’s where his story should, like him, be left to rest. It is one of the more compelling story arcs, repeated in history and myth. Same as Varian Wrynn, to bring him back after such a dramatic storyline and death would ruin it. Imagine if they brought Saurfang back? He had the perfect storyline, an Old War hero, who did some terrible things when younger, who had to bury his own Son (an aberration of the ‘normal’ way it should be), who grew more and more disgusted by the way the Horde was going, and just more and more tired… In fact that’s exactly how I would describe Saurfang towards the end (and I think Blizz were gunning for that vibe), He was an Orc out of time, and he knew it. He finally saw the grim truth that Sylvanas actually -did- embody the original Horde, and so lived long enough to have went from Villain, to Hero, to being dragged into being the Villain again, against his will. All he could do, was inspire the next generation, with his words and his death, to be the -better- side of the Horde, and as he left his life, to give some semblance of decency, and meaning, to theirs. You see it in his protégé, Zekhan, who is teaching young Horde children at Orgrimmar’s orphanage, and seems to have finally ‘got it’. He’s started talking the way Saurfang would have, not the way a starstruck Troll teenager would, as he does when we first see him.
How perfect a legacy for an Old Soldier? What better end? Why dig him up and spoil it?
Same as Vindicator Maraad. (Damn I miss that guy) He is this absolute -beast- of a tank, a protector of the innocent, a real hero, and yet during his ‘Lords of War’ cinematic, we see that he was not perfect. He failed. He let anger take over from duty, and people died, and his hammer cracked. He’s still an angry Draenei, during that Cinematic he slams said hammer down on Varian’s war table, scattering his little model soldiers, and that anger, and shame come through, and then in Shattrath…The Second time round…this time he -can- make good for the sin of his past, and he does so, and sacrifices his own life, to save anothers. The mistake of his past, is redeemed, and he dies, a hero, finally at peace, His hammer, that once he failed, now in the hands of an Orc, not an invader, one on his side, and he imparts that last truth to Yrel, as he fades “In the Light, We are One”. He doesn’t even mean that He and Yrel are one, he doesn’t even mean that Yrel and Durotan are one, the intention seems to be that by saving lives, he has made up for the people he failed to save, that in the Light, they are all One…Then the glow in his eyes just fades, like a giant death machine robot being turned off, and dies, his burden released.
As a story motif, it reminds me of the end of Blade Runner, with Roy Batty, the Replicant, He could have killed Harrison Ford’s character easily, but just bows his head, cradling a dove (a traditional symbol of Peace) and just says…“Time to die”, and promptly does, calmly, peacefully. A ‘man’ of lifelong violence and darkness and sins, ends by saving a life, embracing peace, and just slipping away.
How cool was Maraad? Why ruin that story? It is so engaging, I -always- do that questline, just to watch that Talador finale cinematic, and I get shivers every time.
How cool was Arthas? He was Wow’s Darth Vader. Why spoil that…
Well actelly darth vader returned as a jedi force ghost so maybe we’ll collect Arthas’s essences and return him as the paladin/king that he was meant to be.
No. Anakin Skywalker came back as a Jedi Force Ghost, said nothing and that was it. He didn’t start boosting people left right and centre. Also, they retconned it a few times, originally he came back at the age he was at death (Yet strangely without the cybernetic limbs) and then they replaced it with Hayden’s portrayal of Anakin, as a young man, yet Obi Wan was still an old man. Trust me, I’m old enough to have seen Return of the Jedi when it first came out. It was Symbolism. The same Symbolism that had Terenas appear as a Ghost when Arthas died. Its a cool symbolic touch, showing that in death, Darth Vader had redeemed himself, but it was also the absolute end of it. He didn’t hang around and teach Luke…
As a Ghost Anakin talked to;
Luke
Leia
Jacen Solo
Though yes the retcons are very funny, no doubt due to Lucas’s indecisiveness.
I mean, I won’t lie, during ‘Rogue One’, seeing Peter Cushing OBE in action, decades after his death, was, pretty moving, and the very ending, with the brilliance that was Carrie Fisher, just weeks after her death, did make this grown man cry a little bit, purely because Star Wars was the first film I ever saw at the Cinema, and to see Rogue one seamlessly segue into Star Wars was actually pretty tear jerking…
Sometimes Retcons are -good-.
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