As I said, Hamuul, his Tauren and Troll druids were there as part of the CC not as part of the Horde. They are still there since they are druids and that land is open to any who practice Druidism. He or any of those are not there with any political agenda or representation. The land is a hub for the Wild Gods and it was defended by NE since the existence of Nordressil. Up until there was such thing as Teldressil it was their home territory.
In times of dire need Night Elves did unite with Orcs and Humans to beat a common foe which came after their heads, it was a fight for survival. And there was a mutual understanding there after the war Orcs got rewarded with the trade of Wood to Orgrimmar. I do not see why would Thrall or Horde have any claim to the land because of that to be fair.
Later on Thrall came to aid the land as a Shaman of Earthen Ring - he also replaced Deathwing in the ritual of aspects that doesnt give him a claim on a throne of Aspects.
The deeds done to aid NE and aspects have been repayed in kind. But I cant see how is that any concern of Horde if Night Elves go back to their lands, when it has never had any Horde (as faction) claim to it.
No, they did not fight for the land, they fought for their lives.
What? Am I missing something?
Deed of one man doesnt measure the nature of whole race. Staghelms story is much more complex then that to slap is so shallowly to throw some dirt on whole race, let alone for Horde to question the morality of it to magically claim the rights to the land.
When Hamuul addressed Teldrassil as âtheirsâ he was talking in the context of âtauren peopleâ. He was showing concern regarding what Garrosh could end up doing with the elements once he started using molten giants.
Same could be argued about the Argents if the former inhabitants of Lordaeron, decide to populate their second largest settlement after Capitol City a.k.a. Undercity.
But if we are to argue rights from the pure âIâve been fighting for itâ angle, years of defence and safeguarding, as well as a constant presence on said land, has granted the Horde (or at least to several of its segments), a voice in said matter.
They fought for said land for the same reason the Argents have been fighting the Scourge in the Plaguelands: because there was an evil that was spreading from said zone and threatened both said area and the rest of the world.
Less than 15 years ago, Night elves seemed rather comfortable with twisting nature to gain the boons that had been dwindling because of the repercussions from the Third war. To the point they decided to create their own World tree.
Difference is, that Nordrassil is viewed as neutral grounds. Said tree is revered by both Night elves and Tauren.
And the Horde could, if we are to factor skepticism, be about as wary as the Argents, regarding whether they are to trust NE with lone access to said element.
Much like saying all Forsaken would gladly act the same as the Scourge? Because that was the point I argued against.
Iâm bit lost since I donât follow the statement. When was that stated about Nordressil.
Yes I never said Forsaken cannot just go and claim the land, if they could. But the whole dynamic of Humans and forsaken has been that they consider their territory Human lands and Forsaken claimed it originally as its denizens and that Sylvanas has managed to secure it by deception.
AD have been trying to isolate the area from Undead for years now. The only thing is how welcome it would be to have forsaken grab the prize from them thats all. Iâm not talking about legitimacy or fairsies here, just their reaction. As it stands AD have no love towards Undead - scourge of Forsaken.
What ? It happened once man dont get it in your head. Stop mixing political agenda with racial figures.
Alliance fought to take down Garrosh and later liberate it again from Sylvanas so does Alliance has a say in claim in its ownership? What is this train of though.
Iâm are not talking about âIâve fought for itâ arguement with you, Iâm talking about the reaction of the faction. And whole point I intervened was that these two comparisons are just waaay to off, since it disregards any agenda and purely hypothetically plays on theorycrafting.
Unlike even after the defeat of LK, AD still contained the undead and tried to restore it to former glory, while no one else spend so much resources into it.
Plus not to mention how much history orcs had towards Burning Legion and nessesity to defeat them to move on.
It was never said to be neutral grounds man. It has specifically being bestowed by Aspects to guard the tree from harm to Night Elves and they received to boon for that. Which they respectfully gave up to save the world.
No Tauren was mentioned in any book or game prior to Cata when it opened up as Neutral zone because of gameplay reasons and Druidic hub. And stayed like that since world never evolves in WoW. But is SR you can clearly see how closed off it is, only NE and Druids of other faction remain there.
But they are the same to AD, live the same need the reproduction the same way. The Forsaken are not feral and can be contained. Its just how AD responds to it or is convinced, considering Forsaken repitation.
Argued it can but doesnât change the fact of AD standpoint towards it
Tides of War novel. After Garrosh used Molten Giants to destroy Northwatch.
Hamuul talks about the world tree as theirs too, and expresses his concern regarding what could Garrosh end up doing to it, now that he was shown willing to use said practices.
First of all, the AD is considered to be no more. Even if there are a few individuals that claim they are still, the entire organisation was merged with the Silver Hand to create the Argent Crusade.
Secondly, theyâve been trying to get rid of the Scourge that populated said land.
Assuming that theyâd put any objection if the former inhabitants came asking for their homes, just because they are undead, goes against the very fact that they already have undead people working alongside them and in their own organisation.
It happened in the Third War, in Cataclysm, and in Legion.
Basically, with all major invasions that ended up threatening said zone.
If fighting for a land, which both sides consider precious or worth fighting for, is enough to give either a claim over it, then the same logic used to declare that the Argents can decide over Stratholme, applies to Nordrassil/Hyjal.
If the lone argument against the Forsaken settling in Stratholme, hinges on âBut the Argents fought for it, why would they give up on it altogetherâ, then the same could be argued as to why would the different Horde segments, that fought for and cherish Nordrassil, simply give up on it altogether for an exclusive NE use.
Itâs addressed as a matter than concerns the well-being of the entire planet. And required of the likes of Thrall, to rush to its aid when threatened.
Yeah, regardless of its initial purpose, the tree is now considered hallowed land for any faction/race that reveres nature. And the Horde does have a few of those too.
They are obviously not. We have Forsaken/undead members of both the Argent Dawn, and the organisation that took up the mantle after it merged with the Silver Hand.
There are other Forsaken amongst the Argents. Just to name some of the relevant ones:
If the argument as to why would the Argents block any Forsaken attempt at repopulating said land, hinges on whether they fought for it or not, the Horde couldâve had the same one in regards as to whether theyâd allow NEs to claim exclusivity over the land of Mount Hyjal.
Because forsaken didnât contribute anything to claim said land.
First one have no real history and the second one literally left the forsaken society at the point when it drastically changed, so more a counterexample than an example.
Says who? Horde adventurers are sent to aid the neutral organisations that operate there.
They helped the Argents about as much as Night Elves help the Cenarion Circle in Hyjal.
Both serve as examples of undead that operate comfortably within the Argent organisation, thus dimissing the notion about any kind of underlying prejudice against the undead in general.
The second one left the Forsaken because of Sylvanas.
And further proves that the current state of the Forsaken faction, that now does not have Sylvanas around, has the perfect conditions to facilitate acceptance amongst the Argents.
From Vanilla to Cata weâre told that forsaken ainât allowed to join this faction?
Does it if theyâre the only examples who actually left the society?
He did, others were happy to stay with their Queen. So howâs that proving your so called âperfect conditionâ?. You know what, it becomes tiresome to discuss with a wall since I know that you had the same discussion before, therefore Iâll just stop.
Yes of course they are druids. He never mentions is a Tauren as people. Or Horde as such.
But AC do not see it as such. Neither did AD. For Paladins the land does belong to Humans and not undead. Notion is not about legitimacy but about what AC believes to be true and their agenda.
Again common foe.
Druids only.
And those druids are still welcome there as seen in SR. Members of CC =/= Horde. Individuals do not speak of any claim to the faction representation. You are keep mixing the two together.
As if AC has unity in their agenda.
You are missing the point - read above.
Yes, but hosting members in your land doesnât magically hand the reigns to them. Again with that logic Alliance does have claim over Orgrimmar. That is a flaued train of thought.
Yes and AGAIN those members of Horde races are still there. Their presence do not give Horde as faction any claim to it. Since CC is not Horde or Alliance CC is druidic organisation.
Yes you know it as PC. But you see how much effort was there put even to organise the meeting of first Human and Forsaken meeting. Such things take time and effort. Thereâs where the concern comes that AC wonât do good to forsaken at start.
Also the named forsaken left the society to CURE their selves. They still find it as something to be rid of - still falls into the ideology of Undead being shunned off and not accepted. And something to be fixed - so how that idea is welcomed into Forsaken society is another issue to be solved.
Thatâs not how the lore works though, not every race is canonically sent to places or kills the bosses. Some are done by Alliance some by Horde. Just because ur or my undead was there doesnât really mean they actually contributed to the lands purging.
The Weak Link Veânari:
Before you do so, I offer a word of warning.
No creature imprisoned in that place should be trusted. Tread carefully, mortal.
After all, it would be a shame to lose so valuable a business partner.
How trustworthy she is - not sure, but still.
If youâll have time, could you share a source if you know? Thanks.
All I found myself was a mention that most of the forsaken present during the Gathering were supportive of the idea and could be assumed to be of Lordaeron origin. But even then, when it comes to the idea of supporting Caliaâs idea, the closest to something official that I know is:
the number of Forsaken who may welcome their presence is not fixed.
The Crusade fought to address the problem of the scourge in the region. If the forsaken find a way to do it, why would Argent Crusade be against, if the goal is accomplished plus there would be no need to risk the lives of their members?
If youâre talking about the original Argent Dawn, that was the place for the undead that were concerned about other things more than about the forsaken specifically and overall about the horde. One of examples could be Leonid Barthalomew.
Where? And most importantly, how is that relevant to the current state of all sides concerned?
We know that there are current undead agents that work for/with the AC. We know that the only qualms said organisation had, were with Sylvanas mindset/praxis.
We have been introduced to moderated undead characters, and characters such as the ones quoted, as well as the likes of Alonsus Faol.
Thatâs enough to showcase that there is literally nothing left of the prejudice against the undead you claimed there was. We have examples aplenty regarding how the AC is more concerned about the circumstances of the individual, not about the condition per se.
Why would them leaving be relevant? Point is, that they are proof that the AC is willing to accept the undead for as long as they consider their standpoint to be acceptable.
If the lone qualm left, was about the way Sylvanas commanded them, once she is out of the faction there is literally zero reasons left for them to not accept the Forsaken plea if/when they decide to move to Stratholme.
You parted on the basis that they would reject any undead on principle. These examples showcases thatâs simply not true.
The only thing left to argue is whether the AC would be willing to let all their effort be channelled into simply allowing the Forsaken to take up residence in said place.
And honestly, if the Horde-aligned collectives were âgenerousâ enough to withdraw any objection to the NEs taking the zone for themselves (regardless of the effort put on by the rest of third parties), i see no reason as to why the same cannot happen with Stratholme.
When he mentions such, he does so in the context of an Horde clandestine gathering that questions Garrosh methods in the war.
We he says âourâ he is addressing the Horde leaders summoned there.
As for their current goals, that does not seem to be the case.
Several quests explicitly address the fact that their current goals is simply to eradicate the Scourge remnants from the Plaguelands.
And with Stratholme specifically, they want to return it into a proper place of creed for those that worship the Light.
None of the above is conflicting with the Forsaken mindset. Specially now that they are down a more moderate iteration after Sylvanas departure.
And Members of CC=/= Alliance.
And yet, there wasnât any sort of objection to the fact that an Alliance race took up residence there.
My point wasnât exactly about Horde claims, even if i worded it poorly enough to mix up the two.
Point is, that the claims over said land are split amongst both Alliance and Horde factions.
And the fact that the Horde ones, that fought for it either directly under their faction, or under other neutral organisations such as the CC, are now leaving it entirely in the hands of an Alliance faction.
And i still do not see why wouldnât the Argents be able of doing the same. They are about as neutral as the CC.
It wasnât about hosting anyone. The call was made to safeguard an element that affected EVERYONE equally.
The point being, that Nordrassil is viewed as a neutral feature of the planet, that both sides are compelled to protect.
Its NOT an exclusive NE feature. Regardless of it inception, we are way past the point of having NEs hogging the role of nature wardens.
It has been part of their story for about the same amount of years as it has been for the tauren one.
AC=/= Stormwind.
Contrary to the negative feeling towards the undead, that permeates most of the Alliance-aligned humans, the Argents have several undead characters working for and with them.
Not really. Most left because of ideological clashes, and only Leonid viewed it as a disease.
Still, the faction works alongside the Forsaken just fine in every interaction it has been having since Classic (and specially after Wrath), even if it strained during Cata because of Sylvanas proactivity in the war.
Iâm not sure if itâs stated in a novel somewhere, but itâs a very likely assumption. Given that the player character gets raised in a Lordaeronian cemetary alongside severeral others. Itâs in these lands that the bulk of Forsaken post freedom have been raised. I imagine the majority of the original Forsaken are also the ones who were raised after Arthas destroyed Lordaeron, no?
Uhm, do you mean that the Night elves and the tauren have been equally concerned with Nordrassil over the course of ten thousand years? Because thatâs not true, at least.
The Tauren havenât really concerned themselves with such matters for a great length of time, to the point that they didnât even practise druidism anymore until the Night elves taught them again.
That said, I think that itâs not questioned from an in universe point of view that Hyjal is the home of the Night elves. The Cenarion Circle has itâs place there, as protectors of the World Tree, and the Night elves wonât boot them out, but in essence the place is still predominately linked to the Night elves.
Sorry for a wall of text, not sure how to condense it all
The most of the original forsaken for sure are from Lordaeron. Not all, since in Warcraft 3 we can see Arthas visiting Dalaran and other places, which technically never were a part of Lordaeron. But after that a bunch of things happened and I have no idea what was the impact of them on numbers.
So, from the original mostly lordaeronian scourge we would have to substract those who followed Arthas to defend the Ice Crown. I am not aware of many human settlements in Northrend at the time, so to me it seems likely, that most human-undead that could be found in Northrend would be from the same scourge group.
Then in Classic all the territories where the forsaken could be found are a few spots here and there, Tirisfal and Silverpine. Not all of them, just a few garrisons. And around those places - a lot of feral scourge all over the ex-Lordaeron territories, if not outside.
To me it seems, that the first wave of the forsaken (till Cata) are just a fraction of the original scourge, and not clear how big.
Since Cata we can see Sylvanas either raising people of different nations, or dragging the corpses from everywhere they could find to Tirisfal. So, the origin of those is also not clear.
Thus the question in my eyes is, how could in all of Cata+ time be so little of the forsaken raised, that their numbers would still be smaller than this first wave of the forsaken.
New undead do not have a source of corpses that could be considered âfor sure from Lordaeronâ. Most (but still the exact number is not clear) of the killed Scarlets. Some from Argent Dawn / Crusade. Some among killed in Hillbrad. But all of those were mixed with other nations.
So, overall, while I can imagine lordaeronians to be a single biggest group of the forsaken, I am not sure how could Sylvanas be so idle, that the first wave minus all of them who were killed, are still a bigger number than everything else combined since she got the pact with the valâkyr.
Overall, it seems like there is no info, and the devs will think about reasoning at some point after they make a decision about some kind of story related to the topic.
I think itâs just reasonable to assume the majority is from Lordaeron simply because the whole story about the scourge etc. heavily involved Lordaeron more than any other kingdom save for Dalaran, maybe.(again we also see lots of farmers turned into Forsaken in the plaguelands, and the player gets raised as a new forsaken in Lordaeron, along with a bunch of others, too)
The Ultimate visual Guide, that has a description regarding each playable race, addresses the Forsaken one as dominantly being formed by Lordaeron citizens.
I meant more that both races have cohabited with said element. Even if the importance given to it, varied.
After Cataclysm, iâm no longer sure. There arenât any strictly NE settlements around, and most of the ground has been taken by neutral organisations and itâs entirety is considered par on other places such as Moonglade.
Night elves may have historically have ties to said land, but after years of having it sealed off, and then having both sides fighting over its safety, donât know how many still consider it exclusive of NE usage (apart from themselves).
Thats up for interpretation - and idk how solid arguement is that to use in any discussion.
Even if that is as you say its false statement.
They are not, but then again Night elves have been overlooking the safekeeping of the tree over 10000 years and compared to âthe timelineâ any other pale in comparison it has been their home for that much and those druids are still even now there and welcome! So I donât get what point you are trying to draw over there.
Even the Tauren druids have scasrly been stated to have been there leave alone tribes.
Everyone who cares and oh boy there are numbers in Horde and Alliance sides that donât give a sh!t. Only of those who are more concerned about the fact of preserving balance over the agenda of their own Horde or Alliance factions.
Yet there they are.
Wrong.
Several that left the society who rejected their ways of living. Now the said society has to come up and live next to them - even though there no Sylvanas do you see the problem that still stands there?
Depends of how you see the thing, I suppose. After spending a little bit of time looking for clues on the topic (that was not quite the thing I was looking for, but somewhat related), I can believe in them being a half of the forsaken. Maybe 2/3. But even that, given that lordaeronians pretty much just die out with next to no addition (the living lordaeronians largely left the places), and people from other nations raised instead of them, seems to be on the border of common sense.
But itâs just me, so I could miss something.
I see, thanks. No clear numbers, but still. I guess having 55-60% being from Lordaeron is not too unbelievable.
Both races existed during the period Nordrassil has existedâŚbut thatâs where the comparison ends, right? Tauren first lived in whatâs now Desolace and then they became nomads again, always on the run for the Centaur. The Tauren didnât come near the World tree, as far as we know.
But, to be honest, World of Warcraft has a very static gameworld. Nothing ever gets upgraded. So we canât for sure know how much was rebuilt after the Cataclysm.
What we do know, though, is that Tyrande took her army to Nordrassil and that Thrall&Co werenât really at liberty to just pay them a visit. They were given permission by the elves, not the CC.
I donât see it as subject to interpretation if in a Horde gathering the tree is addressed as something the faction has a say over.
Honestly, any notion of exclusivity shouldâve been discarded after what happened during Cataclysm.
That there are several factions that fought for said land, in order to preserve it. Many of those, currently at odds with the Night elves.
And just as the Argents may think that their recent struggles to cleanse the land, could grant them a say over what its done in regards to Stratholme, those Horde segments that fought and died for Nordrassil, couldâve just as easily challenged the notion about Night elves suddenly deciding to set up tent in Hyjal and claim it as theirs.
If we are to go for historic claims, the Forsaken would probably pose the same sort of claim over Lordaeron cities such as Stratholme, as the Night elves would over Hyjal.
And this all circles back to the fact that if we are to take the effort of neutral factions as a deterrent regarding why would these zones be claimed by partisan members of either faction, the claim the Forsaken may have over Stratholme, mimics the one Night elves may have had over Hyjal.
Regardless of the actions of neutral third parties such as the Cenarion Circle or the Argent Crusade (both of which involve agents from both Horde and Alliance races).
That would only exemplify cases that had the individual make the additional effort of embracing the creed in its entirety.
Still, thatâs not indicative of (a) having said organisation inherently being prejudiced against any form of undeath, and (b) whether itâd be an odds with the current iteration of the Forsaken faction.
Specially now that the dominant agent that caused frictions between both factions (Sylvanas), is now gone.
There is apparently, a sizeable portion of Forsaken that support the Argent Crusade cause:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Dawn While they shared the same goals as the Crusade, the Argent Dawn opened its ranks to not only other Alliance races besides humans, but also members of the Horde and even some of the Forsaken. They cautioned discretion and introspection, and put a lot of emphasis on researching the Scourge and how to combat them. The Argent Dawnâs cause is simple - fight swiftly and mercilessly against any element of evil that surfaces in Azeroth. They insist they are not a political body, nor do they ever wish to become one.
The overarching goal isnât really that hard to not support.
Also, any qualm the AC may have punctually had with the faction, and any argument derived from it, could be said about the standpoint of the Horde segments within the CC.
Its not as if NEs do not have a history of misuse with world-defining elements such as world trees, wells, etc.
We do not know where they ended up living, but as of the end of the Sundering novel, there wasnât anything that pointed at NEs being the ones that exclusively took hold of the entire area.
And we know they had been fighting alongside the likes of Huln up until then.
True.
Point being, that i donât see why wouldnât the Forsaken be able to pull a similar stunt with Stratholme. After all, they are acknowledged as the remnants of Lordaeronâs citizens.
Assuming that the AC would automatically raise their voice against it, falls flat if we are to factor that the Cenarion Circle didnât put up any sort of âfightâ when NEs did likewise in Hyjal (even if the CC was comprised by both Horde and Alliance forces).
And taking for granted that the treatment would be any different, sort of smells like a double standard that goes along the lines of âThis race can do this if they want, but this other one cannotâ.
It happened once man dont get it in your head. Stop mixing political agenda with racial figures.
