@Aellas
What is your problem with bears man you dont even play guardian?
You must have a bad memory with bears. A bear f… f… fu… i mean fought you or your mom?
TLDR of your entire argument:
Mage Tower forms exist, therefor bear is god; Also - here’s some free advertisment for niche top players playing with the same 4 other people.
Im salty cause other classes do not have forms and I indirectly say that by claiming a horribly underperforming class is fine.
Stop.
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what changes do u all wants ?
does guardian take more damage than other tanks ? no, check some logs at warcraftlogs.
even meta protwar takes about equal overall dmg per dungeon in a same lvl key and with same affixes.
does guardian do less dmg than other tanks ? no, again. it’s approximately the average dps among all tanks in the keys.
and the guardian has a variability of builds, being able to greatly increase its survival rate due to the loss of dps, or vice versa.
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Yes. I’ve tested that personally. It takes around 25% more damage than prot pala.
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logs of warcraftlogs of different protopals and guardians say the opposite.
23-24 keys with same affixes.
maybe your build is to blame, or the way you play, I don’t know.
I guess that’s the problem for every guardian druid, isn’t it?
I haven’t seen one single guardian druid player say they take less damage as guardian than as any other tank. I guess they all have dodgy builds and they’re crap players.
Other classes simply have more things to avoid taking damage, so no.
I think all Druids are gods/goddess. #FBLM - Fluffy Bear Lives Matter.
What a great arguement it mentions mage tower. States bear is god. 
We are making the right sort of progress.
You have got to make a real arguement for a buff. Logs and numbers are only one factor. Make good arguements, that all you have to do. People are posting and that means interest.
State why you die and how you cant avoid it.
Why people play druid?
Human would be way smarter for the rep grinds but I don’t care I want to play druid.
…we will be playing feral… and I really just like cats a lot.
Nearly forgot, mage tower issues.
It makes no sense for Pulverize to require and remove two stacks of Thrash when the entire left side of the tree is oriented around bleeds ticking, generating shields and rage. It should instead instantly apply 3 stacks of Thrash on the target.
Raze needs a better single target treatment. Shuffle the damage around so the main target takes full equivalent of Maul damage (Maul is 120%, Raze is 70%) and other targets slightly less, but leave overall value on five targets equal as is now. Silly for a talent near the bottom to have some kind of a penalty. There’s great synergy with Tooth and Claw and spreading the damage reduction debuff, but is absolutely idiotic for a capstone talent to have some kind of a drawback. Good on trash but not so fun once you reach the boss.
Why is Circle of Life and Death simply not giving faster ticks of damage but reducing the duration of your dots? It affects the uptime of Scintillating Moonlight & Rend and Tear in a negative manner. Is it too hard to copy the fresh rework of a Moonkin talent that used to function the same way?
And a more appropriate character animation for Raze, because it looks worse than a discount Swipe and it doesn’t even play the animation properly if player is moving at the time of casting. Just go with the old Maul animation where the bear lifts himself on his hind legs and slams, much better than 3 yellow lines in front of his nose.
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guardian takes more dmg when it matters.
in the beginning of the pull the get smacked so hard that the healer need to recover it quickly if because you dont even have rage for FR and only have 1 charge anyways.
the group heal is nice and such but you can hardly time it exactly when you need it unless you let your def fall.
heal proc on rage spend is a flawed concept. if it was healed per point spend it would be a billion times better not 1 massive heal on 200 rage spend…
guardian can recover but not frequently like other tanks. so if you get smacked 2 times in a row, that will be a healer cd.
i dont like to heal guardians because on my shaman i will do a ton less dps then
You are posting on a lvl 50 shaman…
Show that, I know its going to be hard.
so?
i have a lot of 70s and dont just switch around for posting in a relevant thread.
why do you post on a priest in a guardian post?
brain much?
i dont like to heal them because they need attention while other tanks do not.
when i tank on them i feel very squishy and on the brink of dying even with iron furs up.
no need to show that. it is how it feels in pugs. Pugs are also vastly played differently than the highest keys, so dont link and mdi player for saying guardian is great because gor pugs it is absolutle garbage. now blizz may not balance for pugs, so guardian will stay garbage because maybe in organized groups they are not that bad when you know when to pop your def cds
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Really the reason is that you are lazy and can’t be bothered?
How you feel is not a logically sound arguement because how people feel can be different. Also its called personal experience. Feelings are thus the lowest type of evidence, because all I have to do is not accept it which forces you to a logical proof.
The reason for this is the human brain suffers from quite a few cognitive biases. These are a big part of experiencing the world. They have many flaws and can be wrong with complex problems. They are there to increase the speed for a conclusion when time is the factor and there i great danger. These are simple problems for survival. When applied to more complex situations they fail, this creates logical fallacies. Here we are talking about anecdotal evidence as the main one, evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them.
Quantitative scientific measures are almost always more accurate than personal perceptions and experiences, but our inclination is to believe that which is tangible to us, and/or the word of someone we trust over a more ‘abstract’ statistical reality.
We understand there is an issue but what is the problem. What could be fixed? The class can be balanced but there could still be an issue.
Edit: O crap, mage tower forms are very important. Druids can’t look purfect without them.
my guardian takes less damage than dh, monk, bdk, and about the same amount of damage, or a little more, as protpal or protwar.
look in the logs for the actual damage received.
and keep in mind that this is usually even in builds for a maximum of dps and a minimum of survival
my guardian usually almost does not require the healer’s attention at all in keys up to and including 20, with rare exceptions on some bosses and on some packs, where any tank requires the healer’s attention
I have been watching videos like this.
Was thinking of going druid myself as a second main.
MF + Thorns: BgGAPjJFohhWlFcNj9E1Av/dNBAAAAAAAAAAAAAJJkIlIlkkkkABJFAgkggEIJJRSiUgWiDAAAAAAICIaCA
MF + Thorns + Raze: BgGAPjJFohhWlFcNj9E1Av/dNBAAAAAAAAAAAAAJJkIlIFJJJJQIJFAgkggEIJJRSiUgWiDAAAAAAICgmQA
Raze + UFR: BgGAPjJFohhWlFcNj9E1Av/dNBAAAAAAAAAAAAAJJkIlIFJBJpIhkUAASCCSgkkEJJSBaJOAAAAAAgIgoBB
No Incarn (least testing done. can definitely drop Ravage for a diff point): BgGAPjJFohhWlFcNj9E1Av/dNBAAAAAAAAAAAAAJikgQJJJJSESSSBAIJIIBSSSkkIFol4AAAAAAAiAiGEA
so enlighten me where all your heal comes from when you are playing a build that has some minor heal every 200 rage spend and a FR on a 30s cd?
it’s magic i guess
You guessed correctly! By the blessing of Elune her Favoreds will be healed!
All kidding aside, you seem to be arguing in bad faith. There are multiple talents that will help to increase your selfsustain other than “a lousy heal every 200 rage and FR every 30seconds”. Completely ignoring the potential cooldown reduction on FR, extra charge, chance to not go on cooldown and CD reset through berserk. Ursoc’s Fury, Elune’s Favored, RotS Leech, Dream of Cenarius, Lunarbeam, Convoke the Spirits and a wide variety of talents to reduce incoming damage in the first place.
I am not claiming everything is sunshine and roses in Guardian ville, but blatantly ignoring most of the talent tree because it doesn’t fit your narrative of “bear so bad” is a bit silly.
I will state that I am aware I mentioned some talents that are considered widely unpopular by the forum community and that you won’t be able to pick up all of them.
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Most people just want to pick all the moonfire stuff and go. Some builds work when you play with regulars, but imo, when you pug, and gotta also do other stuff.
I personally don’t go without Raxe+TaC.
Initially I wanted to pick pulverize, but went now for the 10$ dmg CD with moonfire.
I also like things like Dream of Cenarius, with you gotta pick a lot of talents to get there.
This week I’m not using the absorb, usually I do that in fortified.
Then I’m curious to why all of those tanks you think are equal or even worse than Guardian in terms of how much damage they take are more played on high keys? We all know Guardian does really good damage. If you are correct about their survivability, then why aren’t more people pushing high keys with them?
Oharroo, a top 3 Guardian druid, streams a lot of high keys and while he can manage with his group he still agrees with a lot of the points that people here make. The biggest one is how vulnerable Guardians are in the start of pulls, and their talent tree layout and amount of 2 point nodes. Same thing is said by Dorki, another world class tank that doesn’t even bother to play his Druid anymore.
So blame it all you want on players who you think have less skill than you or the wrong builds, but just know that the absolute top tank players who are doing the highest keys agree with a lot of the issues people are complaining about.
If Guardians got more baseline HP and/or buffed mastery, some 2 point nodes cut down to 1 pointers, and a few crucial rage generators like Blood Frenzy moved up in the tree I think it would be enough to close the gap for most people.
The talents available aren’t actually bad, but making solid builds require too many sacrifices compared to the other tanks, and is the biggest issue. If Guardian had like 3 talent points freed up, a lot of their issues would be solved.
I’m not saying you need to play the best tank for keystone levels that most people do, including myself, but any weakness that a spec has trickles down to lower levels as well.
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This topic is being spammed by a Priest who advertises and lacks experience + knowledge, and someone on an alt SAYING they take less damage; But provide no proof.
Meanwhile; MAJORITY + The Top Ranked Guardians say Guardians are in a poor place.
This is dreadful.
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