You’ve been given an answer about why the new direction for the race and racial theme touches a bunch of core themes, places them in uncertainty, and renders some as false, and why the scope of the effect is so big, that the devs will likely never bother depicting it decently.
You not willing to accept why something is important to other players and why touching something that might have relevance beyond “it’s just a video game” to the topics, have nothing to do with it.
You talk about how bad was a change to the Sylvanas narrative and what it touched, yet the moment we move to “the direction of someone who is as fundamental to a race as Sylvanas to the forsaken is now in a state of who knows what the hell is going on”, you make a choice to downplay wilinness of the devs to remade alter this part of the story, yet highlight the relevance of what happened to Sylvanas and forsaken.
Just look at your own arguments on the topic of Sylvanas, and you’ll see more or less all the same underlying themes as what happens to other aspects where the devs say (metaphorically speaking) “we can take the stories the players like, and remake them because we can do better”. And time and time again, it does not end up being better.
Do you think that the clarification regarding Elunes parentage to the Winter Queen, represents a new direction for the Night elf race?
Wasn’t that myth already busted the second Blizzard already clarified a bunch of afterlife aspects with this expansions intro? (Aspects that trashed several other ideas with several races)
How is the fact that Elune is the Winter Queens sister, something that affects or harms, the Night elf story in any meaningful way?
No, I’m not talking about the overarching approach of the Shadowlands expansion, I’m talking about this new bit of information given to us and being discussed in this thread.
Why is it that Elune being the Winter Queens sister, represents ANY sort of effect upon the Night elf story?
I think that in combination with other things that happened to the race in general it’s a continuous trent to deconstruct what made the race in it’s earlier days.
Given the praise I see from narrative people, like Danuser, Golden, Copeland, (to a degree) Gregory, for themes and directions of where Anduin goes, Saurfang, new horde identity search, that direction is pretty clear - be a background for selected few characters, until the narrative will conveniently could pull the elves out for an event or 2, then forget that the concept of a “follow up” even exists.
Same general theme was with Sylvanas. With Yrel. To a degree with Garrosh (and by the extension the whole WoD effect on the orc lore and identity). Be a tool to tell a certain message, regardless of how it fits the things.
That is how I see it. It might be wrong. It might be incomplete. Blizz writers might be secretly geniuses, etc.
Elune story started to crumble IMO when the devs decided to push the Night Warrior + undead night elves story. Which was a big WTF moment for seemingly quite a few players. And the current story progression does not make an effort to neither mitigate the damage continued in BfA, nor to at least tell properly and in details the story behind all of what is going on, and re-establish connection to the known older lore elements.
How does it improve the downfall trajectory of turning the race into something it was not?
Does it give a new meaningful trade off for what was taken? Does it bring explanation for why those things happened? Does it give new meaning for why the old lore made sense?
I do not see any of that. What I see is the total backpedaling from the idea of distancing Elune from known pantheons / naaru / old gods, etc., ties her to Death magic despite her having ties to all cosmo forces (except disorder) before, in one way or the other, throwing away some things that were considered true (Elune-related afterlife), and bashes a bunch of things in the process (be it mentioned actions and reactions of undead night elves, Amalgamation of souls claiming being betrayed, etc.)
Things do not exist in the vacuum. Problem is not in “let’s imagine there is no story of the night elves, no story touching Elune, and let’s create a new cool thing”.
Problem is how does it fit what is there. And it does not. It takes what is damaged and continues to warp it, placing some things as lie, some things as contradictory, and not doing anything to address the problems.
The whole things was terribly foreshadowed, poorly executed, barely accomplished anything, it’s once again “tell instead of showing”, and it fits the trend “and now what about night elves is wrong / bad / fake”.
If that thing would’ve happen in the context of Classic or TBC - there would not be anywhere near as many question to this story direction. But now it’s a part of other troublesome narrative elements, related to the said race and beyond, it’s a yet another “1 step from the ret-con territory”. And to neither of them it helps.
It’s just adds more confusion and dilutes things in the narrative part that was shaky / in troubles before it. Thus it won’t (nor it should) be viewed as a thing in and of itself, but in combination with other stories and events unfolding around topic of Elune, and role / place of night elves in the warcraft universe.
offtop
We had similar discussion about Yrel and the new direction with the Light. I get that for some there is nothing special in pulling the rug from under feet and tell “ha, actully it had a different meaning all along!”. To me inability to stay consistent is a really bad sign when it comes to the execution. It just throws away bits of what people liked, and offer the things in exchange that were neither wanted nor are interesting as it does not follow what made them interesting in a first place.
It is because it’s not consistent with what was known, because that goes away from the nature of Elune being something unrelated to pantheon (as it was the only pantheon at the time, not the current “every force has one”), and moves the origin of elves in unknown quantity into the Shadowlands territory (being orchestrated by an entity coming form the Shadowlands, and the WQ is from the Shadowlands, at least currently), makes “who know what they even are now” even more blurry.
Worshiping of Elune should inevitable take the WQ into account from now on. Origin story and all the known affiliations of the race shifts from Dream / Elune into “ackshually, it might all be because of the Shadowlands influence that this troll tribe was changed into what they are”. The scope of how will it impact virtually every story that ever touched the Well of Eternity (the way of communication with Elune, alongside moonwells) is still not clear.
Do those alterations have to be negative? If we look only at them in the vacuum and assume flawless execution - not necessary. Given every other bit of Elune related stuff starting from BfA trend, and the execution quality we have - oh my, that will be a lot of confusion, miscommunications, and contradictions, that take a troublesome narrative and amplify the negative feelings further.
What exactly was known about Elune?
How does it move the “origin of elves” into the Shadowlands territory?
The origin of elves was that of Dark Trolls that got mutated by the energies coming out of the Well of Eternity.
Trolls aren’t tied to the Shadowlands.
Even those that revere Loa, that we now know are tied to several aspects of the afterlife (Bwonsamdi or Mueh’zala), aren’t tied to the Shadowlands.
We don’t even know if having Elune be “related” to the WQ, would make her in any way tied to the Shadowlands.
Helya is apparently closely related to the Maw. And yet, she is a Titan Construct like Odyn.
An agent of “Order” like the Titans.
People have speculated about Elune being a Titan, a Naaru, a Wild God, and plenty other stuff. Even after this piece of info, we still don’t know what that MEANS for the character or where can we find its domain.
How so?
She clearly tries to differentiate “Her people” from those of “Her sister” (as shown by Ysera).
Besides, wasn’t Ardenweald already heavily tied with Night elves? Didn’t we have a thread not long ago about how the attack against it, was “Another punch to the Night elves”?
So, what is it? Do people want or not to be tied to said zone?
I’d like to add, that trolls worship Loa that are already tied to said place (to the point some of them are seen beneath the WQ). Why should Night elves, who are in essence another troll tribe, be any different?
And i’ll repeat that so far, we have ZERO information about whether they’d be or not. All the above is but speculation.
The only information we have so far is “Elune is the sister of the WQ”.
That’s it.
What alterations?
Honestly, i do not see what information has changed. (*)
Elune was a blank spot in most of her aspects. Even now, she remains mostly the same.
How could’ve this been handled better?
Would you have felt better if she had been a Titan? Azeroth’s fetus?
A Light entity?
A Void one?
A Wild God?
You don’t want Elune related to the WQ and think that contributes to the downfall of the Night elf story, ok. Assuming that we were to accept Elune being WQs sister, what does it make her? What’s her “tag”?
You seem to imply that this has defined Elune into some category. Which category is it? What is she now?
What do we know about her nature with this new information?
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(*) And i mean given this new information about Elune. I’m NOT talking about the other changes. I’m addressing this one and asking what does THIS ONE do in the story.
Used the Well of Eternity and moonwells to commune with others.
(was sleeping in the Well - just a myth but could tie the identity of her to the Earth mother of tauren)
Supposedly participated in creation of prime naaru.
Has very similar to naaru soothing influence on whoever she talks to.
Well of Eternity and Tears of Elune having a subtle but consistence presense in the story, mostly related to night elves, with all the added side effects of why it was an object of importance for the characters who interacted with it or the region in general.
Night warrior has some mentions for a long time, at least since the War of the Ancients trilogy where is was briefly mentioned by Illidan, but no details not before, nor now though (but mentioned taking souls of dead)
For some reason Azshara parted her ways from worshipping Elune.
Her son (whatever are the details) is on Azeroth too.
Several times claimed to be a true deity, unlike any other force we’ve seen before. (who else - idk)
Interacted about 3 times with the alliance characters directly, and once to bless an item during BfA, on a request of another night elf.
This is not complete list of things I could think of emidiately. Details are few and far between, but relatively consistent (were) and touched a lot of stuff over the course of thousands of years.
It was orchestrated by Elune, and Elune now would have the Shadowlands origin.
Not to mention that there is a hint that there was some stolen fruit that changed cave troll into night elves, or at least finished the process. Arcan’dor and some trees in Suramar now may be tied to the similar Shadowlands origin of the thing.
Battle pet stuff is not confirmed to be neither canon nor non-canon:
They did not just randomly come there, and the stories of Elune that sleep in the Well and talks to them that way also have to have some basis, even it’s Y’shaarj in disguise.
Origins of troll are not known. Where will it go - can’t tell. And it was in a context that for whatever reason a troll tribe was guided to become what they became.
They go directly to Ardenweald. But I can agree to a degree. Only Aliothe and Ysera are not from Ardenweald originally yet now bound to the place.
The Queen is a part of the pantheon of Death. The Shadowlands is the plane of Death. Whatever the current status of Elune is, she shares her origins with the WQ if that info will stay on release. Unless “sister” is metaphorical, and then why bother adding all the confusion to begin with.
Something tainted her even before Odyn commited to his shady actions. And that something, given her look, was not seen anywhere in the Shadowlands we visited this expansion. However, it does fit what we can encounter while savin Uuna from the “dark place”.
She tapped into the powers of the Shadowlands. Reasoning aside, that did not go well.
We would know where it’s coming from. The 1st Ones are the progenitors, then the next tier (for now at least) are the pantheons. So, here you have at least rather firm connection to the pantheon of Death.
What do you mean “how so”? A sister of a “goddess”, who knows her better than anyone, would be totally ignored by the followers of the mentioned goddess?
Maybe. I read all the threads here, but do not always bookmark things.
With the reveal of this connection there would be no question about what people want. That would be a follow-up (unless blizz pull “it was all a dream” or something like that) of visiting the deceased night elves in the realm of Elune’s sister.
How regular people like old Emma just go in? Idk, maybe portals, maybe brokers, maybe other means, but they do. So, they will. (assuming consistency)
They had a separate afterlife story, that was bashed by the events of BfA. Where will it lead now - who knows. But not in a direction that made people interested in the race to begin with. Will it be good enough - there are some concerns about it.
Yeah, totally nothing related to the “supernatural” side of the race was changed in the last 2 expansions.
Totally Elune part is not related to other Elune story bits. Because it somehow does not.
Like, having a proper set up? Paying attention to the feedback to be sure that what the devs try to say and what the players see is the same thing? Having a proper attention to the scope of how much is affected but what you try to downplay for some reason as a minor lore detail, and placing more hints at where things go? Like, archaeology is a thing, explorers leage is, blood elves are known for their interest to the research of rare / unusual stuff. Rumours, hints from story of ancient races, some malfunctioning titan construct revealing a place to explore. Possibilities are vast and reach, should the devs be willing to use them.
I would’ve felt more confident in the current narrative team if her story would be consistent with the former story bits, and she would not be directly tied to any of the pantheons, maybe except some “bargains” with occasional entity here and there.
That would not work out. Azeroth is dormant and Elune is rather active.
Not tied to the pantheons that have representation in the Great Dark Beyond. At all. As this incorporeal state would fit what rather well whatever story bits we had before.
I think it does not help. I think it was not delivered well. I think it does not do justice to how massive the consequences are to what is known about history and cosmology of the WoW universe.
Rebel / fleeing / treacherous / power-hungry / wounded / insert motivation for departure Eternal One, spawned from whatever were the actions of the 1st Ones / progenitor, from which the pantheons follow as the next tier.
Consistent?
You’ve just mixed myths and folklore with the actual background of the character (for starters, she wasn’t the one that changed trolls, it was the titan blood of the Well). Also:
None of the aspects you just mentioned conflicts with her being the WQs sister.
None of them are in any way or form, changed because of this information.
First of all, no. It wasn’t orchestrated by Elune as Chronicles go. It was a random causality derived from the wound left after Amathul killed Y’shaarj.
And secondly, this doesn’t necesarily need to tie her to the Shadowlands in any way.
Ysera is “hers”, and she is a dragon bonded with the Life domain, and a guardian “conscripted” by the Titans to guard Azeroth as part of the forces of Order. She isn’t from the Shadowlands.
So any “Origin” to be had regarding Elune, has far more probabilities to be with either of the two above, than it is with the Shadowlands.
In fact, given her background and theme, odds are high regarding Elune being the other side of the coin regarding the WQ.
The ruler of the Life equivalent of Ardenweald.
Yes.
Much like Trolls that worship Bwonsamdi have zero reasons to do likewise for the Winter Queen.
And he delves in a domain LITERALLY tied to the Shadowlands and Ardenweald.
So you think that Elune should have remained as some standalone factor, with no ties to any of the known cosmic forces, and zero connections to all 6 primordial energies that we know shaped the universe?
I have yet to see any specific reason as to HOW does the clarification regarding Elunes parentage, affects in any way or form her story.
Specially given how little context, or clarification, has followed on said remark.
For starters, you seem to insist on the fact that this somehow ties her to the Shadowlands, when nothing indicates such, and we have plenty of other beings from all the other cosmic forces, that still delve in said domain but aren’t part of it.
We know for starters that Ysera is “Elunes Pet”. And yet is a Dragon (titan construct), with a bond to the Life Domain (Emerald Dream), and a former Aspect (Agent of the forces of Order).
We also have Helya (Titan construct), working for the forces of death, and yet tied with the Valarjar (titanforged).
We have Loa/Wild Gods like Bwonsamdi, Shirvallah, Rezan, Ursoc, that all fall under the WQs care…and yet we know are all from the Life domain.
They are kind of tall. Would be easier if they were gnomes / vulperas.
We’re not there yet, but some might portray the story that way.
Well, there are ways to make some things work without contradictions. An outright revisionism is neither accurate, nor trouble-free.
They totally randomly just travelled to the Well, and learned the titan language because of whoever was talking to them was just an imagination?
I guess at this point we’ll just agree to disagree. If for you that does not, so be it.
Right…
If you’re willing to talk about the Well, first it should be noted, that it’s not the only version of the story. Secondly, reasoning for it we do not have anyway. Not only Aman’Thul, who can see through time, would not be in a position when “he could not imagine the consequences”, but also the use of the Well was later briefly mentioned - to help “life” take root on Azeroth. And “life” in WoW is not something random.
Once she is a sister of an Eternal One, there is no question about “necessary”. It’s would be a part of her origin story, changes in Shadowlands, possibly whatever Zovaal did, of life spreading across the Great Dark, of everything related to the Dream, and so on.
So Bwon is also a “sister” of the WQ?
I think it’s pretty safe to conclude this discussion here. To me, this changes a lot about origins and evolution of the Shadowlands, about story of Azeroth, it’s races, literally everything ever touching the Well, and spawn with Elune influence across the Great Dark. With some changes minor and some - rather big.
If for you tracing the themes and parts touched by a story element, and paying attention to how it propagates across the narrative, is not relevant, that is not something I can help with. I do know some people are fine when the story ignores parts of itself when convenient. Not my cup of tea.
I didn’t think it made sense that Eonar was the sister, because that would imply that The Winter Queen was related to a Titan. And I’m still speculating that The Titans are The First Ones, so it didn’t make sense to me that The Winter Queen would be comparable to The Titans themselves.
So I speculated that it would be Freya, because that would place The Winter Queen more on the level of a keeper like Freya or Odyn, which seemed reasonable to me.
The only reason I didn’t consider Elune, was because Elune struck me as more powerful somehow and also a character Blizzard would keep shrouded in mystery until she could have the spotlight to herself.
But it’s not far-fetched that it would be Elune, and lots of people have speculated it, and there’s a lot of reason why it would be her.
The sister being Elune implies that Elune is elsewhere but close by. Probably The Emerald Dream is her realm if The Shadowlands is that of The Winter Queen.
And Elune has all that Arcane magic stuff going for her, alongside some nature stuff, so it gets nicely entangled with The Titans and Eonar.
And The Emerald Dream’s proximity and relation to Azeroth would explain her attachment to the Night Elves as well.
So I can see Blizzard taking it in that direction. Queue The Emerald Dream expansion!
I’m not sure why Blizzard feels the need to reveal – at least in part – who Elune is at this point in time. The character seemed to thrive a lot from being a mystery. But time will tell, maybe.
It’s so funny to look at these Elune fans malding about Elune. You just see their house of cards getting shattered. I love that.
Elune was considered to be a high tier god, but her power levels were always vague - and it always made sense for her to be below certain characters like Sargeras. The same tier of a titan? Seems good to me.
I can honestly say I care less about Elune’s bakground, power level, identity or alignment than I’d care about Hogger’s, Cookie’s, or almost any randomly picked dungeon boss’s… Can’t be bothered to click the link. The interesting thing about gods is how they are seen, not what they are.
No. But its a Wild God, that delves in the Shadowlands, without being tied to said realm in any way or form that would thematically affect those that worship him a.k.a. trolls.
At this point i’ve yet to understand HOW people think it does.
Because so far i’ve noted two kinds of players that argue against it:
Those that think that it affects the God ranking, and demand Elune stood above all other godly beings (Titans, Eternal Ones, First Ones, or whatever).
Your argument about this somehow tying Elune to the Shadowlands. Even if this new information was preceded by other story elements such as having Ysera, a being demonstrably linked to a realm outside the Shadowlands, being “hers”.
In neither posture, did i get any sort of clarification as to how/why having Elune be the WQ sister, would affect the Night elf story or change it in any significant way.
Mainly because the first one seems like some weird flex at “I want my god to be more powerful than yours” because of some pissing contest. And the second one seems like mere speculation at best that can be argued against given the context and events that preceded the fact being argued.
I am not a good person to find this out from, because I am not strictly against it. It does not help to improve the current situation, and requires a lot of work to retrofit gigantic amount of stuff. I do not trust the devs doing it, because even what we have with Shadowlands is largely hit or miss, with no consistency in quality. Hence my perspective is
Some loved what happens with Sylvanas. Some - with Yrel. And so on. Different people find satisfaction in different things.
The only comparison of her we had with Sargeras was in the currently non-canon table-top rpg, and Sargeras was not even close to Elune there.
Nothing definitive was mentioned about it in “canon” materials.
Tbh (just as an aside) I doubt Bwonsamdi can be classified as a Wild God, an expression of nature and Life.
He’s clearly an expression of death and decay.
Its such an insignificant, and out of context clarification, and there is just so much info that could end up going in EVERY direction, that i can’t see how the particular “Elune is the Winter Queen’s sister” is something that would in any way define anything.
What would that even imply?
It could mean that whereas the Winter Queen is in charge of Ardenweald, Elune created the Emerald Dream (or some Life equivalent realm).
It could mean that Elune is seen as a First One, that much like those of the Shadowlands, created her own realm/domain in some other cosmic force territory. It could perfectly mean that Elune is the Winter Queens equivalent for some Light-related realm.
It could mean that Elune is the older sister of sorts. The one that ordered several of the cosmic realms and gave Ardenweald to the Winter Queen.
And a long etc.
The only thing that this statement gave, is an aproximation regarding where Elune stands in the cosmic power scale. In a way that makes her “comparable” to the Winter Queen.
That would only give enough base to complain, for those that only cared about such things. Those that wanted Elune to be “A god above all else”.
And yet, i fail to see how that would affect the narrative of Night elves in particular (and i mean in a way that significantly changed/warped it further than it has already been with the introduction of previous Shadowlands features).
