addition to this. we as users dont have to come up with solutions. we can point the
shortcomings or say dps low, utility bad etc but we dont have to come up with solutions. thats devs job not ours.if you look reworked classes and compare them with dps warrior our kit left behind and outdated. for example outlaw rogue is not hard target capped anymore so why not fury ? or some specs got aoe stuns as baseline why not dps warrior too?. dh got compensation buff to darkness why not warrior got the same for rallying cry in 5 man content? anyways my point is you cant call peoples comments,feedbacks pointless/dooming if they dont bring solutiouns thats rude
I already given my view on things in the relevant posts on the topic. You will likely find that I agree. Most actually agree, funnily enough. There is just a confusion of the term âfineâ, as explained earlier. Or⊠you got the doomers who get annoyed, that I donât doom.
Yet, still. Not topical to KSM. Title, âstate of warriorâ clearly is related to OP question about the state of warrior related to KSM.
Doomers going to doom. I am here to disagree with that attitude towards warrior. To make sure people like OP donât solely get painted the wrong picture, as I feel that is harmful to the community.
KSM is easily doable as warrior.
Nonsense, Iâve been posting on Blizz Warrior forums for over 15 years and when the spec is good I will point it out. I had plenty of arguments with people at the end of BFA where Warrior was very well performing, I had plenty of arguments with people in Legion during periods when Warrior was both good or bad, giving a realist and objective view of the situation against the doomers.
What youâre doing is trying to say âthings ainât so badâ when Warrior is clearly, evidently and demonstrably with all the statistical and anecdotal evidence in alignment, underperforming (and as Arms, by a LOT), there doesnât need to be opinions on this because everything aligns with the data. The same can be said for utility, we donât need a discussion to conclude what Warrior has or doesnât have, itâs clear.
We can argue opinions about the social and gameplay implications, but itâs not âdoomâ to just say what the data says, and conclude that it isnât ideal. You gonna keep sitting there and pretending things are all rosey because youâd rather Blizzard didnât balance the game?
Cool, but maybe think this through.
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I guess you ignore the points where warrior is doing 30s, when others are stuck at 28. You ignore the data points that put us at high-mid. We are the 3rd best melee spec (Fury) in M+. Havoc and Ret above, rest is bellow by a mile. We ignoring that as well⊠of course
I could repeat myself, but please read what I already wrote above explaining it to you, what I mean by fine.
You are dooming, because you are using words like warrior is underperforming, when even our bigest theorycrafters argue that we are fine. It is DH that is overperforming at what it does. Warrior is high mid, we are are performing in a balanced position in the game. We are bit stronger than most, but not by a landslide.
So please, donât look at the data only to reinforce your opinion that warrior is underperforming (because we are if you use DH as a baseline), when you should be looking at the gamestate as a whole.
What you are doing is say âthings are bad!â when warrior is clearly, evidently and demonstrably with the statical and anecdotal evidence in aligment, performing fine in context of the gamestate. there doesnât neeed to be opinions on this, because everything aligns with the data.
Maybe, I donât know, consider things through and try to reflect on the arguments given. Instead of hardlocking yourself into the âwe are not broken OP, so we are badâ. If you open your eyes and look past the gloom, you will see it ainât all doom.
But this is completely false, WCL stats shows otherwise.
Havoc is the only melee to clear a 31 key, and has the highest damage, 20% ahead of Fury. Fury, Ret, Unholy, Sub, Outlaw, Enhance have cleared 30s. The only DPS Warrior player to have cleared a 30 key is Critcake, also the only Warrior in the top 600 keys, the best M+ Warrior player in the world.
But hereâs the thing, Outlaw Rogue averages 15% more damage in M+ than Fury. Infact, among melee specs Fury is only above the trash tier specs, Arms, Feral, Assassination and Survival. The only reason Fury has a 30 key cleared is because the spec is literally unkillable.
So tell me, how does it make any sense that the raging berserker, reckless damage dealer spec that is fury is unkillable but does no dps? And tell me, how does it feel to Arms Warriors, that they have a Legendary weapon and sit at the bottom of damage in both M+ and Raids?
The datapoints that WCL ranks Fury as B tier and Arms as C tier (aka bottom) in M+. Sure. The datapoints that show out of the B-tier specs, Fury sits only above Elemental in damage?
Fury is good in the raid, but itâs still massively behind the top specs on damage, and if WCL filtered out cheesing like they did in Classic (example Warriors soloing spears on Igira for parses), you would see Fury drop further. Arms is literally in the trash for raiding too.
Itâs great that I can solo world bosses as Arms and Fury, but Iâm a DPS Warrior, not a Blood DK tank, my role is to deal damage, our damage is undertuned and our utility is lacking.
Please show me your data points of a Warrior dealing with Afflicted or knocking/pulling targets out of Sanguine.
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You benchmarking yourself to DH consistently is the reason we will never see eye to eye on this. Sure, they done a 31, we done a 30. Highest DK is 29.
We are not above DH, but we are above the average. And top 3 of melee specs.
On DPS, we are dab middle as Fury. I donât disagree our DPS is a bit low in a raid situation, but we get the job done. Replace all the DPS with our DPS level and bosses would still flop. Arms could need some love, but on council they pump and on the patchwork fight of the tier (Volcross) arms is doing negligible worse than fury. High mid and mid. Neither of us are surprised Fury do better when there are burst AoE. So hey.
You are hyperfocused on what small setbacks we got, instead of focusing on what we do and we do well. Our best players show we can keep up, we are behind the outlier that is DH, but the rest we beat or go against toe to toe in M+.
And as we are still talking about KSM here. I think warrior being able to do +30, proves that in m+ we are more than fine. Some would even argue better than than those who do 28-29s.
No, youâre benchmarking entire Warrior class on the performances of 1 player in one M+ team instead of looking at statistics and measures that actually matter to the average playerbase. Nobody cares that the best Warrior in the world cleared a +30 with this team just because Fury happens to be unkillable, itâs literally 1 player out of 600 runs.
People care about their performance, their dps, their group desirability. You sitting there saying Warriors are âtop 3â⊠At what? They are in the bottom half of damage in almost every measure, and Arms is outright bottom of damage, Prot is bottom of tank damage.
Fury is two things, popular and tanky.
The highest DK has done a 30. Youâre sitting here focused purely on what key the best players in the world can do as usual, if youâre gonna do that at least get your facts straight.
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[Death Knight DPS - World Mythic+ Character Rankings (raider.io)](https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-3/world/death-knight/dps)
At current time, no DK DPS has a registered 30 on time on raider.io.
The closest you get is Xmdw, world leading DPS DK, with a timed atal 29. Rest of his keys are 28 and 27.
Just to make sure, what is your source, if not raider.io?
Edit:
As I was curious you were thinking of a Blood DK
[Death Knight Tanks - World Mythic+ Character Rankings (raider.io)](https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-3/world/death-knight/tank)
I can see no BDK either that has done a 30 in time.
I got a feeling we got different datasets.
Scubbing the all keys done above 30 in time, registered on rio, I canât find it either.
I can see you typing, I am kinda hype, I really want to see DK doing well. As it is my 2nd fav class. Tried finding youtube video or twitch clip. Still nothing, please share!
Meeresteel from Echo has timed a 30 in AD and BRH this week. RaiderIO isnât always reliable because it has to manually update and is slow, my source is Warcraftlogs (also has that issue, so use both). The same source Iâm using for analysis of the damage output of classes, which they provide.
Which is how I know that Fury is 20% behind Havoc, 15% behind Outlaw, 9% behind Windwaker on damage. Itâs how I know that Fury is rank 14/26 specs on pure output, with many of these similar ranked specs being comparable on damage, aka 20% behind the top specs. Same reason I know that on M+ score, Fury is the 6th ranked melee dps spec.
They have compiled the data for you. Arguing about the rank 1 players in the world is irrelevant anyway. If someone is applying to a group and their spec does 15% less damage, brings no utility and canât deal with affixes, youâre going to pick the spec that does 15% more, which will be popular/plentiful because it does 15% more damage.
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Hey, that is great news, 30 AD and 30 BRH this week is great progress. I am really happy for them.
Now, as we sorted out the data issue.
I still think you are looking at things with the want to find negative factors, and deliberately ignore the good.
But if nothing else, DK now going up to 30, is great, welcome and happy news 
Aight, so to sum up our discussion, to end it at a nice place:
The Potental:
- We both seem to agree that looking at the top 0.1% is not necessarily helpful for the discussion.
- We disagree that the top is what we refer when looking for the current class/spec cap potential.
I say having done a 30, proves that we can do a 30. As such works as proof to that level of content is doable if you put the required effort and skill into it.
You say even if it does; the shown potential is âfake newsâ level of information. That in fact, warrior is in such a dire state compared to other leading specs that the average player will not be able to get to complete their goals. That to focus on the reached cap does nothing more than prove our fault, as other classes/specs have reached greater hights. Thus, we should not focus on what we currently can do, but what we currently havenât done, in comparisment.
A dip into performance balance:
- We both agree DH got a huge lead on DPS on Fury.
- We disagree on how it should be handled.
I want to see DH brought down towards closer the middle of the pack DPS numbers. To reduce the DPS gap between top and middle. I want Fury to remain relatively the same, as our DPS is mid-tier. As such, a point of balance, as Fury currently bring the DPS needed to get the content done.
You want to see warrior buffed up to or above the level of Havoc. This as a partial argument that, as your view of warriorâs lack of utility necessitates warrior DPS to be OP for us to not be obsolete. - We both want to see that Arms/Prot be pushed a bit up towards mid.
I put weight on that it is mainly encounter design holding arms back this tier in raids.
You argue B tier is B for Bad, bad should instead become Superb.
I argue B is mid and fine, it is S and F that are the main problems to look at.
(going to ignore things where you said âwarrior does no dpsâ, as you probably didnât mean it literaly, only in context to your outlier benchmarks)
We both disagree at great degree to what markers we should aim to balance things around. You seemingly want things balanced about top-end. I want things balanced around the mid-tier.
I do believe we both agree on that we will see the meta change, as it is the timer locking us out from keys being completed and not health. That we both expect to see Warrior as a whole falling behind.
- We both agree, warrior, all 3 specs, can do KSM.
- We disagree to what degree the community perception will interfere with that journey.
I say a KSM pusher should not worry about it, and ignore the nay and doomsayers. That we got all the needed tools, utility and DPS to get the content done.
You say because of our lack of utility, DPS and ability to interact with affixes, the practicals, warrior will face huge issues and concerns. - We disagree if you should directly compare yourself to other classes potential, when doing KSM.
I say warrior is fine. You should be easilly be able to do it, and get invited to keys - as long as you do the required minimum prepwork and effort.
You say It is fine, but as we are not OP, you will not have a good time. As we lack that power, it is a huge problem in the case of fun. KSM, even if it is your goal, is irrelevant. It is very easy. But, you will not be picked, with the reasoning in the issues points mentioned above. Because warrior will not be picked in higher keys, you are screwed. As such, you should voice discontent.
Feel free to correct anything I misunderstood or misrepresented. But at this point, I think we both have discussed this topic to death and not much more is to be gained. There wonât be an agreement between us; I havenât seen any reason to believe anything else than warrior in a decent to good spot for KSM.
Nobody had said that, especially not me. Why you make a massive post and then claim to know what I want based on what I didnât say? You canât just make assumptions.
What matters is Warrior is undertuned damage wise and lacks utility, what matters is there are a number of specs, not just Havoc DH that are MILES above Warrior. Nobody is complaining they are bottom half if the specs are 5% apart, but Fury is just below mid pack and is 15-20% behind top specs, Arms is further behind.
I play Arms, my spec is literally only above aug in raid dps contribution, and among the trash in M+ too, even with a Legendary.
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Fair enough, I inferred that from your statement of everyone wants to be OP and should be OP. That line.
If you didnât get it, when I say outliers, and use DH as an example, I donât talk about only DH. I also talk about ferals bellow us and rogues above. I simply use DH as it is the most prominent one.
Everyone towards middle, with us an anchor point. If it was not clear enough.
I will try to be clearer in the future.
i mean ST and prio dmg is more than enough as fury, arms could use a bit more baked into ms so that if we dont have full st talents still our MS hits hard for the spec to be decent in M+. and moving shockwave is also a good idea⊠we do have a ok amount of dmg in keys in gen as arms and fury. i would rather c em looking at outlier specs.
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I dont think you understand the frustration of us warriors. We have to express our feelings of being mostly ignored as players in game, so we are left with filling topics that have no connection nor meaning to usđ€Ł. Atleast give us some joy here mate
I understand and can empathise, still, you should rather focus your efforts in the threads where your complaints are the topic.
There are a multitude of ways for you to break out of your box of frustration. Yet, that would require effort to put in, effort that is wasted trying to subvert and break other posts that are more positive themed.
I do understand you, I do feel where you are coming from, I simply donât respect your choice to wallow in it and be so inclined to drag others down into the gloom with you.
Rather see warriors that do not live in the world where this is a problem, simply have fun and donât worry about it.
I mean topic says STATE OF WARRIOR, so thats kinda general topic if you ask me. Dont see any problem with people âdoomingâ like you say when at the look of title you can share all your thoughts about warrior. I mean there is like 20 people here expressing their feelings about warrior and STATE OF WARRIOR which is not good atm, and you who wants to make some order, or i dont even know what you are trying to do.
To OP, i dont think you will have problems reaching 20s and getting that KSM. On the other hand anything beyond 20s is really hard since we dont bring anything that other classes cant do same or even better. If you have friends who you can play with, you will probably get to 25+ with enjoying what you are doing. Otherwise its not so enjoyable . Hope you make that KSM, good luck.
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