the eye should just remove stealth from arena for 30 seconds.
Even with the eye you cannot get a rogue out of stealth…
totems are already a liability, so you example is pretty off.
Totems generally die to 1 minor attack and usually pretty big things are tied to our totems.
Stealth used to be the same way that
a) you were slower
b) you could see a stealthed target in close proximity
c) sap was a shorter range (iirc)
d) it was easier to pull rogues out of stealth
e) they didnt have an !diot proof fail free card with noobterfuge
they removed all of it, but for totems it is still the same trash and they continue the same bullocks with 9.1
well you could also remove the immunity and the improved stealth?
So if you vanish mid fight in the face of 20 people you just die like every other class.
like this it is fail proof and before it was bad design.
so people, like you said, dislike both, so why not make the third option and design something not idiot proof to give “skill” back to the game.
rogue was once a very difficult class but now they removed everything that was good for the game lol
Not instantly, only when it ticks. You can remove magic dots with cloak. Other than that, well, sucks but dots are supposed to be the counterplay to your mechanic so you can’t just run away.
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nice foundation for a discussion.
i dont play with a rogue or a rogue myself and i disagree.
Eyes should spawn more often, there should be nameplates when using eyes and the problem would be fixxed without destroying rogues class fantasy of getting resets because they dont have permanent damage like warrior for example.
Putting stealth on a 30 sec cooldown would be really bad in my opinion.
Only thing i agree on is that they should move slower in stealth.
Yeah so that’s what you want, a spell that can’t be used to go away when in melee, a spell that can’t be used to go away if within a caster’s range (most casters have something to get the Rogue out within the second), a spell that can’t be used to enter stealth from anywhere if the Rogue has any DoT effect, a spell that can’t be used to tempo 3s when the healer is in CC (if there wasn’t the shield conduit right) and a spell that can’t be used to immune anything if it hadn’t stealth protection.
So in short you are asking for Vanish to be only and exclusively usable in two conditions, one is “be behind a pillar big enough so that casters AoE like Blizzard or Rain of Fire can’t hit, no DoTs at all, no melee nearby”, in short already safe, or “one time cheap shot or one time sap with a macro”. But in no situation can the Rogue actually stealth with Vanish unless he’s already in a position where he could wait for a restealth. Oh and Vanish has no other uses at all.
Sounds a bit extreme, my dear. What if Shamans could only use Astral Shift if no enemy is within 25 yards, and only if you’ve not been attacked for 5s ? That does sound really stupid right ? Because the spell is supposed to make you survive tough times, and you could never use it that way. Well that’s the same. Vanish is the way for Rogues to gain stealth, which they rely on for their most powerful tools, and you’re suggesting that Vanish never allows them to stealth unless maybe they macro it with an instant spell, and still, latency and everything you could just blow Vanish for nothing.
Maybe you didn’t think it through well enough.
Yeah, like you, they want the Rogue to be unable to ever go in stealth but that’s just a dumb opinion then, not worth accounting for as it doesn’t lead anywhere constructive. You talk of a third option but you don’t give any, you’re like “oh the only spell that let’s Rogues get their best spells ? Nah, remove entirely so it does nothing now”. It’s exactly as if every class could only use it’s core CC spells only in opener and then never again, or could use one of their defensives only until they get hit again (which, then, does nothing).
Yes. I’m mostly referring to the abnormal amount of DoTs in the game at the moment. In many 3v3 cases you would get taken out instantly just due to the amount of DoTs existing and being on you, plus any other effect happening nearby that does AoE (Phantom Singularity and the like).
Yes, but it is 2 mins now. So, that would mean you can only Vanish if you blow Cloak, and if you have no physical DoT and no one is close enough to hit you with an AoE. In the current game with all the mobility and instants how many situations like that happen ? Close to none, if they do you most likely don’t have to Vanish anyway. Not to mention that it means that in every match-up where any enemy has a magic CC or magic damage Rogues either can never Cloak, or can never Vanish, since you’d need them paired together.
Again it was like that before but there was the Vanish immunity frame so Vanish had another interesting use for the times getting stealth with it was not possible (because using it land one singular Cheap Shot is … boring and unnecessary). So it was fine as you could actually use your spell without it being useless without another spell and a star alignment to go alongside it. People here seem to think Vanish should be stripped of every effect, effectively making it a useless ability that you can never use on its own, and even when not on its own not many situations allow it.
Basically from what I read people are saying “Vanish needs to be EXACTLY Shadowmeld, but without the immunity which is the one strong thing about Shadowmeld. So, a million times worse than a racial, and then we don’t whine”. It does seem highly unreasonable.
Also about the DoTs being the counter… I don’t think that in the past you’d get fast ticking DoTs (like, not Doom) that lasted over 40 seconds ? Maybe it was a thing and I don’t remember. But nowadays Shamans and Druids can keep you with a DoT up for that long. If you play double DPS then you simply have no option to stealth ever then, with all those lovely suggestions.
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When was something like a subtlety rogue more difficult to play than it is now?
Rogue restealth is super obnoxious, but i rather face a sub rogue trying to restealth all game + trying to kill in go’s than facing an assa rogue who just sits and does his pve rotation, kidneys on cd and eventually just wins because of his overtuned dmg+ms
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Yeah … the new honor talent actually scares me a bit because of that. Shiv will give a 40% MS, but you need to Shiv on your Kidney Shot in order to have lethal damage, essentially wasting the most of the MS from the new talent if you go for a healer (since he won’t heal in Kidney, right), or if you go for a DPS with clean setup with cross CC on everything that heals (since there is CC very little healing will occur).
So, in the end, when does this talent shine ? When you play Assa healer like a monkey in 2s with no cross CC whatsoever, just PvEing the DPS down with the most absolute tunnel vision, because the healer will have to heal through dampening + Wound + the 40% MS (yeah, for now it stacks with Wound Poison…) every Kidney and it will be impossible very very quickly.
Initially I really liked the fact that Rogues got a really OP thing, would have been payback for all those Sharpen Blade years, but lately I’ve come to really worry about the fact that this talent will promote idiotic, brainless and straightforward play over intelligent, planned and coordinated play.
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Way to go buddy, some woke mindset right here.
P.S: I play rogue and you’re missing the point. I do agree that the move speed in stealth is stupid. I’m at 159% in stealth with Nightstalker, 134% outside of it, without sprint. Because I built around it, including gems. You know why? That’s the most effective way to go away from zug zug warriors and zug zug rets. Do I like it ? No. It’s fun up to a point but that’s a bandaid. And it doesn’t work that good when I got Reban x2 zug’ing me from Africa around the pillar.
I also miss the old times where stealth was more meaningful on the opener and restealth was “optional” compared to now. I enjoyed that feeling of going slow while stealthed and having to spec into a talent to make up for this, because it gave my class a unique movement pace that others didn’t have. I don’t enjoy the absolute must need for restealth with 0 sustained damage if I play sub, I don’t like the crit lego as well for the same reason, I wanna play a rogue and not Usain Bolt simulator 2021 / Stunmachineforyourmage deluxe edition.
If you’re struggling right now your “ideas” won’t change anything, you’ll still struggle afterwards unless it’s a 2v1, which you shouldn’t loose in the first place. Just because those stealth classes will go far away from you, mount up, and run around whatever pillar they have until stealth / cooldowns come back up.
If anyone gets a restealth on you in a 2 or 1v1 situation that means you didn’t prevent it and don’t know how to play around both eyes. In other words: you’re allowing a class relying on stealth to get its main tool back. Stop blaming others for this, it’s exactly like world pvp or duels in that situation, you can either handle it or you can’t.
But if you’re complaining about rogues in SL then o boi, you wouldn’t enjoy garrote into 3x cheap shot info full kidney into gouge coupled with a 70% baseline slow from back in the days where stealth had a cooldown.
Men a agree nerf ret
How would it be for every 10sec the stealth detection would increase by 1-3 yards, and it would be affected by dampening so with 30% dampening it would increase with 1-3 yards every 7 seconds?
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sap range should be cut down to melee for sure and movement speed penalty in stealth should be back as well
I think that stealth conduit was the main issue of with rogues this season, which also was good with crit lego. Also mage having triune and being hard to kill allowed rogue to do this re-stealth plays.
Ah yes… Getting a rogue out of stealth means the game should be unplayable for a few seconds, is a 6 second stun enough for you sir? Absolute clown stuff.
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I can agree that stealth being a CD would be nice if it’s always useable in combat. But the striking irony in a ret paladin talking about something else being “OP” is ridiculous.
Also the entire discussion is flawed because rogue without stealth is extremely weak, they would have to buff survivability a lot. One of the reasons you have to run away and hide is because you simply can’t stand and just fight another melee. But i am guessing you have played a total of 0 hours of rogue yet say stuff like this as if you’re an expert. Weird
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I agree that I think the eye is the main issue as it hasn’t been updated. I think eye should allow you to see enemy nameplate as well which would probably be the biggest counter.
As far as stealth working like TBC - I feel like rogues change due to changes other classes get rather than the other way around. Its a bit like how people think CP should be back on the target but current rogues would be terrible if they did that.
Just changing the eye CD and letting you see their nameplates would make eye an almost guaranteed way to get them out. I feel its only a problem in 2s generally as well with terrible comps like double rogue.
The conduit/MA nerf should help I hope too, assuming anyone plays S2
or combine it with cloak / evasion?
ah right, why should rogues have a fail free jail free card while others don’t?
why not? give me cloak, evasion and shadow step to instantly port 25y away and we got a deal.
Great example you got there LOL
same stupid as rogue design already is. Rogues are just so spoiled since they are op as heck since dawn of time, but yeah lets give them some more idiot proof pvp talents. Oh wait they do that already while they also keep stupid stuff like shadowy duel.
thank god you got no other ways to achieve this, right?
I would agree if you give stealth a cd, remove subterfuge and remove the mongo conduit
rogue bias is strong in this one, like always. no surprise
it does lead to a class design that is not obnoxious and toxic to play against. Only rogue mains fail to see that it is generally hated that you cannot play the game 60% of the time against rogues.
has nothing to do with it. Vanish is not a CC spell
they removed shadow dance?
I think i missed that patch.
it has always been like that in the past, because dots would reveal you after 3s. Thanks to the conduit that is not the case anymore.
Bleeds used to counter rogues heavily but now that is also not the case anymore.
Rogues lost all their counter play. Basically the only choice you have left is to overpower them somehow. Where is rock paper scissors? Doesn’t apply to rogues apparently.
so?
What are my options against the obnoxious stunlocks every 25s?
what are my options right now to prevent a rogue from restealth? I mean kidney, sprint behind the next pillar, is great and fair design according to you?
You always only see it from a rogues perspective but the degenerate gameplay that rogues offer in SL is just beyond stupid. Run, Run, Run, sap sap sap wait cds, one tap someone, rinse and repeat. Much fun much wow.
but it really doesn’t matter. it is my opinion and you are entitled to your own. It is not like blizzard is balancing anything in this game because of a forum post anyways (or balance at all for that matter)
sub rogues were much harder to player before they put in things like subterfuge, double dance, 100% cloak, 100% evasion, feint, heal pot etc. etc.
Generally the mechanics seemed to be harder to execute. At least from an outside look.
now anybody can just 100-0 you in the opener if the target got no trinket.
You seem absolutely obsessed with rogues (sub in particular), yet you have never ever been on the other side of the coin to see what it’s really like?
If they removed subterfuge you would just dance cheapshot instead, without losing a whole lot. Or you know you could read the gameplay and spread out so its impossible for a rogue to stunlock on the entire team.
Yes cus 90% cloak makes so much sense lmao, you would use it the exact same way as now, 0 difference (same with evasion).
Feint actually requires game knowledge to play around, it costs a lot of energy and has a CD. If you are bad at reading when damage is going to come you have a wasted talent in that row (elusiveness). Because feint baseline does nothing in pvp.
Double dance is also irrelevant, you don’t do any damage by just dancing, you would know this if you had ever experienced it. Wet noodle dmg, you need every single CD and 100% crit from stealth to do any 100-0 stuff (which they are nerfing in 9.1, good bye sub rogue).
It’s a squishy high risk high reward spec. Catch a rogue and it dies very quickly, this is why you have to run. How is this so hard to grasp? The class would actually be easier to play if they just buff baseline defensives and get rid off stealth. This whole thing reeks of noobs not understanding game mechanics just like noobs in Dota 2 complain about stealth heroes.
Also, are you this upset about other specs too? And no it wasnt harder. The game was a joke back in the day, stop beating that dead horse.
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I cannot put into words how much I hate rogues, but I consistently find myself on their side in the arguments on these forums.
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