Suggestion: Rated WM WPvP


(Vaëyn) #1

How about adding a PvP rating system to WM? With rewards equivalent to other rated PvP.

I don’t do bgs or arena much, and no rated. WPvP is my fun. Happy to do it just for fun, but a rating system would be cool.

What form it would take is debateable. You can’t really be separating WMers into different shards, like PvPers in rated arena are separated by rating.


(Karanze) #2

How would that even work though? I enjoy the freedom of WPvP, don’t want it tied to an objective goal for an example.
And if it’s a grind fest we’re back to 2005.


(Vaëyn) #3

I love WM, a rating system would have to be done right ofc. Earning rating would have to be something significant to deserve rated rewards.

Base it on what WPvPers are doing anyway, with a natural progression.

Need a rating indicator on opponent. Winning against higher rated players increases your rating and lowers theirs. If in a group, or multiple allies hit your target, the rating change is lower. Maybe only fractional rating change for a raid. Small change for a group. Bigger change solo 1v1.

This could naturally encourage players to attempt higher rated opponents. And discourage lower rated killing. Perhaps have a simple coloured indicator for rating difference; grey, green, yellow, orange, red. Or maybe just an up/down arrow or something. Could be an interesting conflict generator.

Choice is still there to do any random ganking you want. But choosing opponents wisely, and winning, rewards you. Has to be kept simple. A choice of higher opponent, less allies, and winning, benefits you. And a consequence for loss.

WPvP is probably its own reward for most WPvPers. It could be fun to add another layer of fun tho. But design in such a way that it’s an optional natural progression.

Not looking to fix or remove ganking. But a rating system could slightly reduce the pressure on lowbies and WM PvEers, without removing their risk. Just easing it, they ain’t happy. There will always be gankers tho, good, they are part of WPvP. Rather than just disable ganking, rating system would discourage it.

All ideas have pros and cons. Abuse of the system with phasing, etc. would need countered. That needs done anyway tho. I love WM as is, but many WoW players want more of whatever they like anyway :slight_smile:

Edits: making it up as I go.


#4

Scenario: I have to go to open a door or I have to go to extinguish a fire that’s burning in my kitchen and when I’m back I have lost 20 rating. Don’t really an idea of that.


#5

I’m sure if your kitchen is on fire 20 rating is the least of your concern :rofl:


#6

Nice ideas, could be a good one if done right as you say.

The ganking ‘issue’ could also include being awarded ‘extra points’ or whatever if you go ganker hunting?

Again, I’m for anything that improves or increases WPVP mate, gets my vote :ok_hand:


(Vaëyn) #7

Yes reward ganker hunting!

It’s fun to kill any opponent. But would be even better feeling to kill an opponent rated higher than you.

Right now, I sometimes check my opponents pvp stats on the blizz website after a kill. It’s fun to know their arena rating, or lack of. I have no arena rating, I’m a low prestige kill. An opponent with a good WM rating would feel prestigious to kill.

Right now, you kinda have to guess rating based on the fight, or look up arena stats. I think it would be cool if that was in game, except just WM rating, and simply presented. Present it as a rank like, soldier, lieutenant, etc. An up/down arrow on their unit frame. A colour, or a number. Something.

Pros and cons. I also like the randomness of anything can happen. Like, what you thought would be an easy opponent turns out to be hard. WM feels good, doesn’t need rating system. But, a layer of rating on top of the current gameplay could be fun.

Maybe like with rated arena, the player chooses to take part in rated gameplay. And so rated players would be in own WM shards.


(Coolgroove) #8

I like this idea! and it’s going to be a very long and detailed post…

But not sure about complexity, because every complex system bring rules, regulations and limitations with it, and that is not what WPvP needs, imo.

No need for separate sharding, etc - everybody in the same world without rules, everything fair and not fair the same way for everybody.

Rating should increase from any kill of your lvl opponent or higher, not lower.

Not sure about rating decrease.
I understand why - player needs and incentive to push further and have something to loose plays in it just right. But it should be only in 1v1 situations, otherwise, when you get killed by 2+ players and one of them have similar to your rating or higher and you loose points because of that - it prevents system from working.

Not because something is not fair or other bs like that, but because it will promote alt+f4, logging off, abusing toys and phasing, queues… to prevent rating loss in corpse camp or any other camp situation. Or even before something has started at all.

We have already a lot of it, and I don’t think it would do any good if there is more of it, because realistically - there is no way to battle this behavior.

To try and still battle this, system would need something like timers to make players not loose rating on repeated kills, or diminishing returns on loses/gains from same player, or … etc, and we are coming to rules / regulations / limitations zone.

Solo/Group/Raid - totally agree, biggest gain should be from solo, less with group, and very little in raid. But we also have situation like now - instead of a raid players get in 5-man groups and stay together to cheat the system.

Maybe it would be better if not only a type of group was in effect, but also overall number of players of your and opposite faction in player’s vicinity.

With all that, I think rating system itself should be different from Arena/BG rating system, mostly because Arena/BG system is more spots-like, and I don’t think it’ll work in chaotic War Mode. Maybe something like this:

  • When player kill another player they can get some-kind of temporary points/ears/heads.
  • To get rating, player needs to cash out those points/ears/heads at NPC in Boralus/Dazar’alor.
  • To prevent situation like “go cash out after each kill”, system should award more rating based on amount of points/ears/heads turned, and almost no rating when it’s only 1-2.
  • When killed by another player, there is a chance to drop 1-5 of those points/ears/heads that player is carrying, that are awarded to the player who won, or randomly distributed in their group. (Or the more you have the more could drop).
  • Higher rating increases a chance of them dropping. If player killed by someone of a higher rating - chance is smaller the higher difference is. If by similar of lower rated player - chance increases. As incentive to search for higher opponents.
  • Just as with solo/group/raid - the smaller the group the higher chances of them dropping, and it’s always awarded randomly to players in a group. Mostly to prevent raid farms.
  • On reset day, if players didn’t cash out any points/ears/heads or if an amount of lost (dropped) is more than turned, then player loose rating.
  • If at least one turned and it’s more than lost, players rating doesn’t change, and they keep all rating they got from a previous week.
  • and then - rating brackets, titles, seasonal rewards, etc.

For it to really work, and I think it’s the same for all PvP gearing systems to work, it needs (again…):

  • PvP currency
  • PvP vendors that sell all items, not just Azerite and NOT rng-boxes.
  • Item ilvl price depends on Players rating. Higher rated bracket player needs less to buy same ilvl item than lower bracket or non-rated player.
  • Maybe even add option to cash out points/ears/heads as this currency and not a rating, so high rated or Arena/RBG players had another incentive to participate in WM.

Only problem I see with this - Honor and Conquest are suppose to be that system…

Yeah, I know, all that above could look like something very complex, but it’s just looks - because I’ve tried to describe with a lot of details. System itself is very simple:

Award temporary points on kills, that player need to cash out to get rating, but also has a risk of loosing them and get nothing or a rating loss in the end of the week.

Thematically it could fit War Mode and WPvP, and also players wouldn’t be able to loose everything in one session of corpse camping, since they wouldn’t be able to drop more than they have and then only their own point/ear/head (because it’s still WoW, too harsh is not an option).

On the other hand - the more of these point player has - not only it can give a good + to rating, but also it makes this player a very juicy target for other players to hunt. Maybe also add increased chance of dropping to a Bounty.

So this idea - Rating in WPvP, + PvP gearing system, + WPvP objectives/towers/control points to get something PvP related (point, rating, currency) and for other player to take that away for themselves, + PvP quests/events, + points and circumstances of potential conflicts, and all of that in huge open world with chaotic and unscripted sandbox environment = so good :smiley:


I like it, haha, rated WPvP, haha, nice!

Arena/BG are like - it’s a sport mate, you have to come prepared.
WPvP is like - battlefield is everywhere mate, you have to use everything.


#9

Well of course rating is more important, I can extinguish those flames later bro! you think this is some kind of game??? oh wait it actually is…


(Vaëyn) #10

Great ideas! Ye, would have to be carefully done for sure. Simply presented on our end. Not too complex for Blizz to do. Fair calculation of rating. Avoid making WM a grind, don’t lose what’s great about it - random carnage. But add a layer of prestige and reward progression, which is missing from WM, yet Arena/Bg PvP has it. Why not WM.

There’s a couple things I would like, up to Blizz ofc if worthy of dev.

  1. Rating progression and possibly a WM rank title system.
  2. Be able to compare my WM rating against opponent in game, via some kind of indicator.
  3. Get progressive gear improvements depending on my rating.

(Karanze) #11

I don’t want to be a partykiller, and I like your passion for this, but I gotta say this.
This is a system that wouldn’t work in practical, ever. I don’t mind being able to use WPvP for something, but making it a competitive system is near impossible to do fairly and functionally.
Exploiting it is too easy, some classes will be vastly more powerful than others (rogues/ferals) and it’ll just be a mess in the end.


(Coolgroove) #12

That’s why it should be much less competitive system than sports-like Arena/BG, because it’s not sports-like, it’s a chaos, and any rated system is there to create something similar to vanilla honor system, but without mindless grind, and much more interactive and engaging instead.

Yes, it’ll still be competitive, not more than just to give players ability to compare one player to another. But because of free-for-all-and-everything nature of WPvP, competitiveness is going to less important than progression and incentive to be in WPvP.

Plus, it’s better than % bonus, or just % bonus.

Any system in WoW is easily exploitable, that is one of the reasons why systems change and get tweaks from time to time.

Some classes are vastly more powerful in Arena/BGs, some have much better comp synergy, some just overbuffed or overnerfed - so it’s nothing new, and not really an argument, plus in WPvP there are a lot of other factors - all abilities available to use, professions, vendor items, using very diverse terrain to your advantage, etc.

It is already a mess, a very beautiful and free mess. We don’t want this to change, we want a system to support players who are playing in this mess and enjoy it, and give some ability to compare.


(Vaëyn) #13

Ye, I see both sides, and Blizz would prob just shake their head due to issues. But, I like the idea, if it could work, to have some sort of progression in WPvP. Good as is. But other parts of game, you have somewhere to progress to. Would be cool if WM had that aspect too.


(Moothilda) #14

It took me some time before I could see the system you suggested, I needed Coolgroves looong explanation to see it :yum:

When I first read it, I guess I had the same thoughs as Karanze; I would hate to be tied down, when world pvp is the place you can do as you like :slight_smile:

As long as it doesn’t bring limitations for pvp’ers that aren’t seroius I wouldn’t mind a rewamp of the WM structure.

With that I mean:

I am a very casual one, I will never play rated or any part of the game, where I have to wear specific gearing - or need addons to play, because I don’t use any of it.

If it is free to enter, and my skills will determine how many ‘ears’ I get then it could be very fun :+1:


(Vaëyn) #15

Totally agree! Would have to be done in such a way that it was optional like with arena/bg, or just a natural progression from what you do anyway. Plz blz.


(Karanze) #16

I disagree vastly. Power difference is a relative term, if you base a system on survival and hunting in the open world, you will only see rogues at the top. Infact, those that do WPvP will simply reroll to a class with stealth to gain invulnerability in the open world.

Classes might have a power difference in regular PvP/arenas/RBG, but the gap here is so large you can’t find anything similar in WoW’s history.
I don’t dislike the idea, but I also don’t think it can be implemented in a way it’ll be a good thing.


(Vaëyn) #17

We can deal with class imbalance. Blizz are tweakers. Just have a handicap system based on the top performing classes.

The rating increase could be based on % of damage or healing you did. Lose and rating goes down. Keep it simple.

Would be nice to see opponent rating in game. Blizz might not like that though.

Edit: making it up as I go. Had thought the arena rating system could be used in WM, just to determine if your WM rating went up when defeating a higher rated arena player. But, nah, keep wm rating it’s own thing.


(Coolgroove) #18

First thing you need to understand - War Mode is not a sports-like thing.

Nah, with the current state of thing it will be Ferals you see there.

Or, some Warrior can find a healer friend and get points from all those Rogues and Ferals, wreck everything - hey, look, now they are all on top. It’s WPvP, nobody cares what you use to win (as long as there is no game-exploits).

Same thing happens in every other game mode. What’s the best for M+, what’s is the best for Arena? what’s the best… blah, blah.

A lot of players reroll to the next FTM all the time. It’s not a problem for other game modes, and it is not a problem for War Mode.

I can! Vanilla! There was a lot of other classes in WPvP, not just Rogues.
And what “so large” gap you are talking about? Rogues? You know that good Hunters and especially Deamon Hunters eat Rogues for breakfast? With a healer you can win more. So they also have a healer, bring more friends…

If anything is not convenient for you, well, it’s WPvP and it’s not suppose to be. Every class already has a counter class one way or another. If it wasn’t true - there would be no duels in this game, but there are plenty, aren’t there?

Only if you’re looking at it from a Rated Arena/BG standpoint. But it’s not, it is as much of a free-form as it can be, and should stay. That’s why it doesn’t need the same Rating system as Arena/BG - it needs not a sports-like system, but still with rating (so players could compare to each other) and progression (so players have incentive to do it).

Yeah, I also think that is the best way to do it. The less War Mode depends on other game mode the better.


(Karanze) #19

I rest my case. You misunderstand the point entirely.


(Vaëyn) #20

At minimum in WM, would love to see arena rating on nameplates. Via an addon probably. Doesn’t seem to be an addon for that. They don’t even want you to know opponent ilvl. Not sure if for gameplay reasons, or just not done.

But I want WM rating system, make it work :slight_smile: