Suggestion: Rated WM WPvP


(Coolgroove) #21

At nameplate - maybe some kind of an icon.
But yeah, PvP ratings and ilvl should be on a tooltip when you hover over somebody.

Yeah, that explains everything. You’re perfectly correct now. Cheers!


(Karanze) #22

It’s not about being correct, but you don’t prove a point by reposting the same comment in a different format.


(Coolgroove) #23

You prove a point by giving valid arguments, and I did exactly that, even if you don’t like them and choose to dismiss because you have none of your own to respond.

and that’s exactly what you did.

You can try to dismiss again, with no arguments. But you right - give it a rest.
There was a discussion, if you don’t want to continue - then just don’t. If you have any points to improve this discussion in a constructive manner - welcome back!


(Karanze) #24

Mind you the very first thing you wrote was “first thing you need to understand”, in a respond to “I disagree”. That’s simply contradiction your own statement.

I did infact provide arguments as to why I disagree, but you didn’t catch what I meant.
Because you don’t seem to understand why I’m talking about a power gap that’s gonna ruin this suggestion.
I’ll play your game and respond to it like this.

Both you and OP are suggesting to make a system based on rank and rating. That would make it a sports-like thing, aka competition, and people will use the META to achieve the best rating they can. It is not possible to make a system non-competitive, if you have the opportunity to compare yourself to others. It will happen.
That leads into the next things you said.

This is open world content we’re talking about, there is no objective other than survival and hunting.
OP’s suggestion is based on getting rating depending on another person’s rating. So what if that person becomes impossible to kill? Rogues would actively hoard rating by being in stealth and starting fights on their terms.
Should a fight go badly, they can simply vanish+cloak and they’d have lost nothing.
Stealth in the open world is the most powerful mechanic in the game. Not even Vanilla Mortal Strike or fire mage one shot competes with it, because not only does stealth guarantee you the best fights to maximize your chances of winnings, it also makes sure you won’t get attacked so a battle you lose will never happen.

Yeah a warrior with a healer beats a feral, rogue and both as the same time, but that scenario will never happen in war mode.
Infact, it sounds like the only thing healer+DPS will meet is another healer+DPS, and then we’ve simply brought 2s/3s into the open world. Sounds a lot like you need arena experience for that.
So how do you prevent that? By allowing more people into a group? Then what’s the point of a rating system if you got friends that can carry you.

Mind that you do not hold a single competitive PvP achievement in either arena or RBG. You’re not really in a position to say who beats who in 1v1, let alone in a DPS+healer battle (arena).

Like I said I am not against making a system for war mode, but a rating system is just not the way. My own suggestion would be to bring conquest points back. Gain currency for slaying the enemy faction and spend them for rewards.


(Coolgroove) #25

So you disagree just because? for no reason? and if there is a reason, to see the opposite of it you sometimes need to understand something. Assumption, maybe. But where is this contradiction you’re talking about?

Not every competition = sports-like. There is a lot more competition in life than just sport. If you like I can bring examples.

This is one of the reasons I said that you need to understand … because it seems that you see competition in WM the same way as competition in Arena/BGs.

Yes they will. But how is it an argument in favor of system failing, if we see the same “META usage” in M+, Raids, Arenas, BGs - and it’s OK?

That is why we want it to happen - comparison, competition, and progression.
But what we don’t want is for it to be like regulated e-sport with rules - like rating for Arena. WPvP is not an e-sport, that’s why it needs a bit (probably more than a bit) different competitive rating system.

Yes, you are correct.

That is one way to do it, and it’s viable, just as viable as my proposition in other post. But you want this one, let’s go

Rogues already doing that, and they are not dominating in WPvP right now. Yes, they always start on their terms, but it doesn’t mean that you automatically lose and they get a point.

You’re keep repeating this point, and it looks like you see Rogues as some king of “immortal gods” with stealth. They are not. As I’ve posted earlier - ask any Hunter, Deamon Hunter or even a Monk who knows what they are doing - they all will say same thing - they are not. And you always have a chance to beat a Rogue, just as any other class, especially in WPvP where there is no restrictions on what you can use.

So, with your point - yes, Rogues have it easier to start fights, and Ferals too, but they don’t have it easier to finish them if opponent is aware what can be done.

Put a DoT on them. Even if you don’t have anything - engineering bombs from Legion (usable by anybody) work as a DoT for just the right time to take them out of Vanish. Use AoE, spectral…

I think healing is way more powerful, but OK. Stealth being powerful doesn’t mean it can’t be countered. Everything in this game can be countered, and the hardest to counter are CC & Healing, not stealth.

I wonder how many Rogues reading this think “rose wet dreams distant from reality”. But I steered away, back to the matter at …

This whole point of yours hold on one preconception - if Rogue opens up on you they have a guaranteed win. But it’s a false.

But it happens even now. And it doesn’t have to be a healer, any other class will do.

The thing is - if you can’t beat the Rogue or don’t know how - you can escape, there are a lot of tools to help you in WPvP to do that. If you escaped - they don’t have a win, don’t get a point, you kept your points.

With your “never happen”, if you, and other players bring friend with them - rogue don’t attack and don’t have a win…

And if Rogue don’t have wins - how can they be at the top of the rating?

Do you see now - it is WPvP, there is a lot you can do, being a Rogue guarantees nothing, no matter how you’re trying to squeeze it.

But one thing, I think, you should understand - you bringing Rogues again and again looks like your own fear more than like a META or something that will break rating system.

Two actually - Ferals currently are more dangerous.

Why? there is no system to pair players for fair fight in WPvP. It’s not an Arena…

You know that healers healing other players is a concept that was in game before there was Arenas, right?

Learn how to pick your fights, how to play your class/spec better, how to escape if needed, be more aware of your surroundings for all of it to work better.

Having a friend will help. There are quite a few players running around with their Arena partners and doing pretty good to say the least. And it’s OK, again - it’s a WPvP and you can use whatever you like/want to use.

Btw, friends can carry you in Arena too. You really need to stop making arguments about something that exists, working and don’t make systems fail - they don’t help your point, but the opposite.

So obvious. That’s what you say when you don’t have any valid argument.

Yeah, how should I know or understand how classes fight and who can win in WPvP if I do only WPvP. I should do Arenas to have a valid opinion about WPvP. Right…

So you’ve tried to dismiss my perfectly valid point about WPvP with something not relevant. Do you still remember what I said you should understand?

And now come back to this:

You’ve tried and was almost constructive, you even call it my game. So nice of you, ty.

As you can read above - I did catch what you meant and why, OMG Rogues. I think now is your turn.

To sum it up, we’ll exclude your continuous Rogue example, because at this point I think anyone can understand.

  • There are classes that are better at something and worse at something else. Playing to your strength and avoiding weaknesses are just as important in WPvP as in other parts of the game.
  • There is no guaranteed “I win” in WPvP, there is always something you can do.
  • Rating system for WPvP shouldn’t be the same as Arena/BG, because there is a lot more that players can do and use to their benefit in WPvP, and because we don’t need any rules and regulation in it.
  • If you re-read my first post, you’ll see about gaining and losing rating, and why I think it should work differently from Arena/BG and how.
  • There you can find that the most benefit will be from solo, less in group, and even less in Raid. There is also randomness involved, and taking into account players around to to prevent exploiting. All to discourage easy farming in groups.
  • Also, there you can find that I’m against direct rating loss/gain on kill, and why, and how it can be done differently. Also to prevent abusing and exploiting, and to give players more options what to do.

And Thank you - you brought up some points of potential problems, it is important to have different view points to discuss and come up with a more flexible system.

Btw, for the sake of competition - all your points and arguments where crushed. Was it sports-like?


(Coolgroove) #26

I’ve been playing EVE again, and saw “dog tags” items that drop from some faction… It led me to an idea:

When you have Darkmoon book in your inventory, players in BG can be looted for a quest token and it is rolled to whole group.

Something like that can be done instead of “points/ears/heads”, like:

  • After you kill a players of a max lvl, you can loot corpse if player has any rating.
  • If player has no rating, corpse is not lootable.
  • “Dog tag” quality you loot depends on players rating, the higher rated player you kill the better tag you get.
  • Better tags give more rating when turned.
  • If you carry a lot of tags, and have rating, some of them could also drop on death (like in my post…)
  • If you do it in a group, similar to Darkmoon in BG, tag is rolled for the whole group. This will make group farming a lot less viable.
  • And it will add that thing - you not only killed someone, bu also looted them. Could be nice.

Also, it could be used to enable players participation in Rated system. Like for example, you need to have a dog-tag in your inventory to be able to see other players with it, and loot them. Players without it are not lootable. But I don’t really like this, mainly because it is easily exploitable.


(Karanze) #27

This is what I call amusement. It is beyond anything I’ve seen so far on any forum. You’re actually sitting in your own little sandbox and going

You haven’t crushed anything, because you are STILL not getting the point I am making.
For the last time, rogues will be beyond broken if we go by the suggestions that you and the OP have made so far.
They won’t be broken because they can beat everyone, they will be broken because what you suggest requires you to survive. Rogues do not die in WPvP, they control the engage and disengage at all times.
Should a rogue realise he’s losing a skirmish, he can simply vanish+cloak and he will have lost no rating. Other classes don’t have that freedom, if the warrior being ganked by the rogue is losing he doesn’t have a vanish button to take him to safety.

This is why the majority of your arguments are invalid.
You are not talking about WPvP as if your very own suggestion has been implemented, you’re talking about it as it currently is on live servers.

I can quickly give you a list of what classes would be swimming in rating and what would sit at the bottom.

Non-viable

  • Warrior
  • Paladin
  • Warlock
  • Priest
  • Death Knight
  • Hunter

Viable

  • Druid
  • Rogue
  • Monk
  • Mage
  • Demon Hunter

Why? Because the above doesn’t have anything to make them survive in the open world. They would be fodder for the classes listed below them.
And that’s not to say that they would win a viable > non-viable in a 1v1 scenario, as a matter of fact fury warriors would beat most of them, but the viable list can prevent rating loss through escapes. They can even escape each other, as they all have an instant hard CC and mobility to get out of LoS.
It’s too big of a power gap to let such a system exist.

And before you say “but X can compensate for Y’s weaknesses”, you’re deliberately making grouping less attractive by giving less rewards, so the majority of skirmishes will be 1v1s.

Yes, as a matter of fact you should have competitive PvP experience to be able to talk about balance and systems like this one, because without it you generally tend to make worse suggestions.
And no, it’s not something I say because I don’t have valid arguments, because I clearly haven’t written a novel of those by now, it’s because it shows in your comments!

How can you possibly tell me “this won’t be broken/a problem at all” when you don’t know basic knowledge of other classes, and you make comments like these.

I specifically said that a rogue would use vanish+cloak. You can’t put a DoT on a rogue with cloak on.
Cloak of Shadows remove all magic effects, including curses, elemental sources (like your fire bombs), diseases and poisons. Only physical effects, like bleeds, stick to you, which is limited to only 4 specs out of 36 and that’s arms, survival, assassination and feral.

Spectral Sight is the only real way to deal with vanish, but that’s interrupted simply by the rogue using Sap on you after vanishing.

And then there’s this.

Lol.
If ferals were good there’d be more than 1.3% with 1800+ rating in any bracket.

(h)ttps://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes

(Boy look what’s at the top!)

You just claimed yourself that healing was the strongest mechanic. Arena compositions consists of healer+DPS because it’s the most effective strategy. Double DPS or triple DPS is not (really) a thing because it’s ineffective.
The only time this wasn’t a reality was before arena became a thing, and using Vanilla as an argument isn’t exactly solid.

Rating. Does. Not. Work.
For whatever reason you believe you understand what I am talking about, but so far you haven’t really made any arguments against my statements, you’re still stuck on “OMG ROGUE OP!”.
That’s not to mention your continous self contradictions

That is simply impossible. It essentially says “we want the same but different”.

But do continue to “crush” my arguments, I truly do enjoy reading someone with no expertise make these comments.


(Coolgroove) #28

Well, well, arguments are coming to an end, insults next right? That’s what I call “not smart” behavior.

Ohh, OK, just because you say so, who cares about actual arguments.

Mate, it’s OK if you don’t know how to deal with rogues, give it time and some effort - you’ll learn. I was there, I know how it is, it’ll pass.

Again, remember it’s WPvP, anything goes, professions, potions, vendor items, etc…

With this, let’s close this “Rogues are unbeatable” topic, because it’s discussed more than enough and as you’ve said yourself - “you don’t prove a point by reposting the same comment in a different format”. It applies to you, even if you can’t yet understand how and what to do.

You really think that Rogues are immortal gods with stealth? And because you think so - my arguments are invalid, haha. You were talking to me about PvP experience… OK, as I’ve said earlier - give it time and some effort, you’ll learn, it’ll pass.

OK, but what about your other thing:

ohh, yeah, for the sake of conveniently twisting arguments you’ve labeled it “never happens”.

But we are finally moving somewhere, you see - even in your list there are not just Rogues. Good. Just don’t tell me that your “non-viable” list is based on criteria of who you think can’t beat a Rogue, it would be very subjective for a valid anything.

First - I recommend you to search Youtube for Dalaran Gaming, He makes 5v5 duels with different classes in different situations depending on who shows up and in what order they go. It’s very informative and really good for learning.

Now, to the list - One class/spec can counter another class/spec, that is the way balance in WoW works - and it’s a good thing, because there is no class/spec to rule them all, everyone can be beaten and everyone has a list of targets that are easier to deal with. Very obvious and easy to understand.

Going solo is the most risky thing to do in WPvP for any class, you can meet easy targets or you can meet your counter or just a player who simply is better than you. That is why it gives best value for rating increase.

If you want to increase your chances of winning - you can bring a friend with you. But because you have it easier now, you get less immediate rewards because you share them with your friend. But since it’s easier - you also can win more, and with that get more rewards.

But if you decide to bring more friends - you’ll get less and less immediate rewards to discourage raid farming soloers.

Now back to your “But some classes can get away easier”.

The point you keep ignoring - it’s a WPvP and you can use anything. So if you need a help to survive or get away - there is engineering (many things usable without profession), potions, items… All can help you with what your class/spec might lack.

Add to this talents and traits that would be better for WPvP and not Arena. Add awareness of your surroundings and how to use terrain, even if it’s only to be ready to escape.

As an example, one of hundreds if not more - for any melee to kill an Arcane Mage in WPvP - lure them into the water, that’s it - helplessly dead, if you know how to play your class ofc. (sry Mages, spoiler…)

And you can exploit weaknesses like this with other classes, every class has something.

and your own

So you can also join with them so they could help you.

It’s a WPvP, it’s not fair and it’s not suppose to be. Make do with what you have. Can’t - well there is lower rating for you.

You know who would be on top in this Rating - those who can use everything and everyone they can to their advantage. And that is the rating that will work for WPvP, and what it’ll show. And no, it would NOT be only rogues, no matter how you afraid of them, they also have weaknesses.

Again, we are not talking about Arenas - it’s easy to understand, really. But tell me, with your “competitive PvP experience” how come that you keep repeating the same valid argument (as you think about it) - and this argument only shows your lack of knowledge about certain PvP situation, or what you can do in WPvP, in your comments?

As a matter of fact you should have experience in what you’re talking about. Fortunately for you there is no Rating system for WPvP, but you can keep clinging to you other experience, it’ll be the only thing you can use to try and somehow validate your comment soon enough.

Tell me, do you think Arena is fair? I don’t think so, because it can be only fair if everybody plays the same class/spec with same items/talents/etc. Otherwise - no it’s not fair. Certain comps beat other comps, certain classes have better synergy with other classes, some classes are simply stronger than other. And with all that unfairness Rating system still works.

WPvP is a lot more unpredictable and unfair, but it has a lot more tools you can use to your advantage in return - that is the balance of all that chaotic WPvP. And rating system designed for WPvP can and will work, just like system designed for Arena works.

How can you possibly tell me anything about knowledge if you think that Rogues are immortal gods with stealth? This is ridiculous.

Azerite traits with bleeds-like effect? AoE to get them out?

keep yourself in combat by using nearby mob… also helps with blind, fear, and as a Warrior - can help with heals.

Yeah, talking about lack of knowledge…

I don’t even… In World PvP. It’s really easy to understand, it’s not an Arena, it’s WPvP. And yes, in WPvP Ferals are more dangerous than Rogues.

You understand that you can’t view WPvP as Arena and expect same results, right? Or your “competitive PvP experience” doesn’t allow you to be able to do that?

Stating the obvious, OK, tnx for helping me prove my point, but I don’t really need it.

So in Vanilla healers didn’t heal DPS and it only happens in Arenas? Or you just decided it’s not solid because it’s more convenient for you?

Dots are not a valid argument. Try again.

Haha, sry mate, but if you can’t read I can’t help you. But keep trying to dismiss - it only proves how not valid what you’re talking about really is.

It is you who keeps bringing it up, again and again. Don’t project on me. Rogues are fine. lol

Hahaha, did you even read what you quoted?
Not every competition = sports-like. It should be easier to understand now.
Look up what word “competition” means - it’s not about sport, but it can be used in regards to sport.

I don’t want the same, I want different, and that’s is what I said numerous times. Mission impossible for you - try to understand it.

Did it again - crushed.

You found your saving straw, cling to it as hard as you can - there is nothing else unfortunately. With this knowledge you demonstrate - you sure you’re not boosted or carried by friends?

Your enjoyment is fun, weird with your “expertise”, but still fun.


#29

This is a very bad idea


(Vaëyn) #30

Ey, I got my arena rating up to 288! No, not 2888, 288. Thing is, I don’t feel that represents me in WPvP. There is no way for me to know where I stand in wpvp except guess.

Wpvp is a form of pvp in its own right. But, if trying to talk about pvp… some will go straight to rated stats and say, you know nothing about pvp. Well, I am not a pro, maybe not quite noob. I want to know where I am compared to my opponent.

Doesn’t mean WM would be a sport, it’s just a rating, there is no match aspect as with arena/bgs.

I rarely do arena, first time in bfa I think. But I do a lot of wpvp. I want some sort of WM rating. For prestige, but also, I want to test myself and learn against the better players. I shouldn’t have to do arena for that, its a different form of pvp. I want to compare with wpvpers.

It’s good to hammer at a suggestion, pick out the flaws, find good points. I’m sure it could be made to work. If a rogue wants to hide to protect its rating I don’t care. It’s within its rights to use that strategy in wpvp. I can stealth on my druid tho, and I would be bored out of my head with that. Just have mechanisms to deal with any issues.


(Ternezia) #31

While I applaud all kind of suggestions to improve or add flavor to wpvp, I also remember my own experiences in rated (that was long time ago) and the problems it had. Rating is a kind of burden, it is a thing you gain in a hard way and are worried not to lose. You step into the next rated bg with a thought on the back of your mind, you are in a tense state. And when your rating starts to drop, then there is frustration, anger. Some people prefer not to continue bringing such emotions onto themselves and stop doing it. Others keep going…

If all those emotions are carried into wpvp, would it be a good thing? Maybe wpvp should remain a free spirit, as it is now?


(Coolgroove) #32

Honestly, I kinda agree with this. Hmmm, valid argument, and I think I can relate, but from a little different point of view.

Sometimes when I see some rating, and I’m interested in getting it, I can have a very strong compulsion to get as high as possible, and it leads to grind and spending more time than it is actually enjoyable. But that’s my own thing and that’s why it’s not an objective point of view even one bit.

But there is something in this I can’t argue with.


(Moothilda) #33

Good question, we all have met those in dungeons who go nuts if they fail in the same way - or if any of you play World Of Tanks, how people stalks you in chat to insults you or have sites open to flame everyone one the team to make sure their winrate doesn’t come too close to 50% :no_mouth:

Or as you said, some people just stop - it’s a pain to loose a mate because they can’t handle the pressure :slight_smile:

But I wonder if any system will ever calm the emotions on those people who put their everything into it, and then have it emotionally hard when it doesn’t go the way they want.

As it is now WM seems to do the same :slight_smile:


(Coolgroove) #34

Damn, Ternezia, it was almost a perfect picture, at least a nice one to think about, and you’ve crushed it with something that’s actually makes sense, especially for a free spirited WPvP. Good one! Seems like I can’t think of the way around it.

I didn’t play World Of Tanks, but I think I understand what you’re talking about - universal problem for ppl, when they are invested, something is not like they would want it to be, and there is some arbitrary number that shows it not only for them, but everybody else too. And then all the nasty stuff that comes with it.

On the other hand, I played a lot of EVE Online and started again not so long ago. In EVE there are “Kill mails” - a kind of battle report that show who was in a fight, did what, who’s vessel(s) was destroyed, when and where.

These kill mails serve a purpose of showing off what you can or can’t do (like a trophy and a proof), and also actual battle reports for fleet engagements and wars.

In WoW we have a long forgotten Statistics. Don’t know how it is for everybody, but mine stopped updating World kills sometime during Legion pre-patch. Point is - maybe a re-work and expand of this is long overdue, and it can be used for WPvP - like a hunter’s trophy-case.

Something like:

  • World kills when solo
  • World kills when in party
  • World kills when in raid
  • Notable kills
  • Bounties killed
  • Bounties collected
  • Etc.

And all those stats only good for a PvP season, then reset and go again.
Put some breakpoints in those stats, and award titles for them, like for example “Sinister bounty”. Or at least make it a part of tool-tip info or maybe an icon near nameplate that shows what player is better at - solo, party, bounty hunting, etc - take best stat into account of what to show.

With this you could see if you fight a seasoned duelist, or these players in a party know what they are doing together, or that it’s just a fella from a raid.

And then maybe expand it into a battle reports system - to show even in a format similar to BG end table, that are all stored and can be viewed by others from Armory. This can be great addition for future War Mode additions like Control points and battle for control.

So system will be not an actual rating, but more of a hunter’s trophies with a rating-like titles/public info about player’s accomplishments.


(Ternezia) #35

Sounds good to me.

What there must NOT be, is to lose something, because this gives bad feelings. Any gains, like titles etc, are most welcome because to gain is a good bait :slight_smile: But not loses. Right now what happens if a raid or party is totally beaten by the enemy? Nothing, the raid disbands and that’s it. People will forget this in a few minutes. If there is rating loss however…you can imagine. And the “I am turning this darn wm off” of course.


(Coolgroove) #36

Yeah, no losing points and nothing like a rating ladder. Just statistics that are valid for a season, and data about player from this statistics.

It’ll give an ability to compare yourself to somebody you’re engaging with and how good they are.

Titles can be awarded at the end of a season, by a highest metric. But there must be a tool-tip info and/or nameplate icon to show current player status in those metrics.

Battle reports can be a great social feature - something to show off, to talk about and to remember good times.


(Dashia) #37

@OP I don’t see how it would help in the whole World PvP experience. The rating would not even be well recognised because we all know a more experienced PvP player in WPvP does not necessarily win against less experienced / less geared etc. IMO the rating would be completely meaningless, saying nothing about a player. Look at the Assassin buff players get for 10 kills, which doesn’t reflect anything regarding how a player obtained that buff and it’s because you can get it instantly if you join raid.

EDIT.
I understand, though, some people are not competitive and don’t like Arena or Rated BGs and this suggestion would introduce some variations to WPvP but I feel that introducing rating would still create yet another system with competition, which for instance would discourage casual PvP players and decimate already lower number of Alliance.


(Coolgroove) #38

Discussion has changed quite a bit from the first post, start from this post - Suggestion: Rated WM WPvP and maybe it’ll inspire you for some more ideas or details.


#39

Do want your rated warmode with your 30% welfare buff and pity loot? If not, do you think your faction will even enlist for RATED warmode? Lol


(Coolgroove) #40

Ohh look how clever and smart you are, did you came up with that joke yourself or just working as another repeater? You have too much “lower back pains” even for the whole two sentences.

How is it working for you - feel better about yourself, or still the same pitiful hiding behind alt while dripping jealousy around?