Suggestions how to balance SoM2/Classic+ (math)

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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So I see some posts here and there suggesting balancing changes to classes in wow classic+/SoM2. That is something I agree on would make the game more enjoyable since it could expand the “playable” spec and class to roosters in raids primarily.
Some people suggest something like -“Give us TBC talents and call it a day”. I dont think thats gonna be the change Vanilla classic players would like. The whole premise with Classic vanilla is that it is VANILLA wow and I wanna stay true to that in this post.

--------------------------------------Balance Druid: Starfire---------------------------------

!Math inc!

Iv’e calculated the dps for Starfire like this: SPELLPOWER :magic_wand: : SPELLCRIT :star2: SPELLHIT :dart: CASTIME :clock3: (Spellcrit and spellhit with decimals example 20%crit = 1,2 and 10%hit = 0,94)

((((594+ :magic_wand:)* :star2: )*1,1) :dart: )/ :clock3:

To calculate the castime :clock3: = 3-(((:star2:-1)* 100)*0,005)

I’ve done a Balance Druid in gear-planner. Also included buffs, flask, consumebles and curse of shadow. The nubers I came up with are:
:magic_wand: 832 :star2: 1,28 :dart: 1 :clock3: = 3-(((1,32-1)* 100)*0,005) = 2,862

Average dps = ((((594+832)*1,28)*1,1)*1)/2,862 = 699 dps

So this is the avarage dps for that player with that gear on a patchwerk fight with just spamming Starfire.
If we give Druids 1%Spellcrit for every 20 int stead of 60 and make Spellcrits reduce the next starfire with 1 sec instead of 0,5 sec the math would look like this:
:magic_wand: 832 :star2: 1,39 :dart: 1 :clock3: =3-(((1,35-1)* 100)*0,01) = 2,611

Average dps = ((((594+832)* 1,39)* 1,1)* 1)/2,611 = 835 dps

During SoM, Fire Mages was doing slightly above 850dps in median with 80+ilvl on Patchwerk.

Keep in mind that this Starfire rank 10 spam is roughly kapable to last 1min40sec with major mana and demonic rune and Innervate. In SoM the Patchwerk fight could last for about 2-3 min

-------------------------------------------Moonfire-------------------------------------------------------

The direct dmg is kinda strong in pvp so I would’t touch that, but we can buff the dmg on the tic. Instead of 0,5209 spellcoefficiency on the tics we can try with 1 = 100%. My calculation for Moonfire with the same gear as above:
Direct dmg = ((254+(832* 0,1495 )1,1)(1,39 +0,1) + Dot dmg = (460+(832 *1)*1,1) = total of 1957dmg per cast in average.

To weave this in a rotation with Starfire we can first ignore the reduced castime for simplicity and calculate that in 12sec/3casts we get 4 Starfire casts during a Moonfire and additional 1,5 sec for the global cooldown when casting Moonfire. That will make the sequence 13,5 seconds

1957 average dmg for Moonfire + 4* average Starfire = ((594+832)* 1,39)* 1,1)* 1) = 2180
Moonfire + Starfire weave dps = ((2180*4)+2023)/13,5 = 791

This demonstrate that Moonfire is only good when u have to move, otherwise just spam Starfire. Even without my changes to the underlying dmg calculation on Starfire.

------------------------------------------Paladin---------------------------------------------------’

Here’s what I think could help the 2 strugging specs of the paladin. Protection and Retri.
An overall increase in spellcoefficiency on dmg spells. In that way we can boost the strugglin dps of both specs and also increase threat for prot paladins. Here is a list of spellcoefficiency of dmgspells as it is currently in game.

  • One-Handed Seal of Righteousness - 10% per hit

  • Two-Handed Seal of Righteousness - 12% per hit

  • Judgement of Righteousness - 50%

  • Seal of Command - 20% of spell damage, 29% of Holy damage

  • Judgement of Command - 43%

  • Consecration - 33%

  • Holy Shock - 1.5/3.5 - 42.85%

  • Hammer of Wrath - 1/3.5 - 28.57%

  • Exorcism - 1.5/3.5 - 42.85%

  • Holy Wrath - 2/3.5/3 - 19%

  • Holy Shield - 5% per Block

Seal and Judgement of Command could without a problem get a big buff in my opinion since Retri is trugglin hard. Also Concecration since it costs so much mana to even cast should get the dps it deserves. Holy Shield should also get a buff in my opinion, that will help prot paladins to sustain good threat while tanking.
You could also make Exorcism and Holy Wrath work on all kinds of mobs and bonus dmg on demons/undead. This would make a designchange but I think it is quite needed for the paladin to have in its arsenal.

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What are you’r suggestions how to balance the classes? this is just minor changes that can be done without changing to much.

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1 Like
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That’s not really balancing classic as it’s only one class not to mention the other specs, and what about a druids other attacks? What about the other 8 classes?

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True, I did not mention all the specs and what could be done. That would make a big post with hours/days of just typing it down in a good manner.

My point with this post is to set a standard how to make balancing changes with Balance druid as an example.

I would like to hear some simular ideas and if ppl even are interersted in this kind of descussion.

Did change my avatar BTW

4

Balance druid needs a mana back mechanic. The damage is there and any change could affect PVP.

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A mana return mechanic would be great sure, but the damage is not there as I demonstrated with my Starfire calc 699 dps with top gear compared to 900 dps average for Fire Mages.

Why not change the Wrath spell at tank 5 so it gives a flat mana amount instead of costing mana. That would make the spell useble and not a dead spell. Tho, this is a rather bigchange.

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Vanilla has a problem with player health. It doesn’t scale with gear and is quite low for the level so many classes including Balance druids or Elemental shamans can one-shot with crits. Increasing their damage increases their crit and burst damage. PvE versus PvP :slight_smile:

Plus threat management during fight…

And in the end Blizzard doesn’t care what’s on the forums.

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Vanilla has a problem with player health. It doesn’t scale with gear and is quite low for the level so many classes including Balance druids or Elemental shamans can one-shot with crits.

Valid concern. So they should maybe increase the stamina on pvp gear. Gear from pvp rep and rank-class sets for the next SoM to a suiteble amount?

Plus threat management during fight…

What do you mean with this? Like every class should manage their threat

And in the end Blizzard doesn’t care what’s on the forums.

I would’t be so pessimistic, if you care about the topic what other way is there to reach the ears of Blizzard?

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Locks, shamas or balace can crit hard on opening causing them to either stop dps and ruin their parse or pull aggro and wipe :wink:

IMHO hybrids should be like in tbc/wotlk where the dps gap is smaller, but still is there but they bring valuable utility.

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no, they do not

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What you need to do on Classic if you want “meme” classes to be viable but not massively impact PvP in a negative way is to give the meme specs their own tier set, with these “improvements” as set bonuses and give them Mp5/Spirit/Intellect as high stats and Stam/survivability stats much lower.

This way they will improve their damage and sustainability in PvE, and those specs are being forced into raiding (increasing raiding pool) but not upsetting the balance too greatly in PvP. Obviously they would be better in PVP with these sets but not outrageous. (Same with ele, boomie, feral etc).

One example would be shadow priest.
They’re great in PvP, but they suck in PvE (They bring an ok buff and do ok damage but they go oom and mostly they’re deadweight for any group which isn’t trolling)
So, how do you help them without impacting PvP? Create a tier set that has low stamina but high intellect/spirit/mp5 with only + shadow damage, which is lower in SP but higher in stats they need, along with a set bonus such as “When Mindflay is used it creates a vampiric aura, stacking up by 1 each use, after it stacks to 3, your next mindflay is a free cast. Using your free cast resets the stacks to 0”.

It wouldn’t have any impact on PvP but would drastically help spriest in PvE - because they’d get 1 shot, only have + shadow damage and be focused from damage to sustainability - with the option to use their rank 14 set instead for PvP if they wish.

Will this happen? Probably not because nobody cares about Classic or will input the time to really make it a viable game - and who even says they want it viable?

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meme specs their own tier set, with these “improvements” as set bonuses

I like that, that would surley balance the strugling specs without fundamentaly chance the design of the game. The “classbuff” is also comin with gameplay as u need to acquire the items. I imagen a libram for paladins that makes you’r Seal of Justice Judgement also taunt the target. That would be a fun way to “fix” the problem.
However, that would make those items totaly nessesery and neglect all other gear for that itemslot.

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If they greatly reduce or entirely remove LB travel time, that could help pvp.
The strongest part of elemental in pvp is that shamans can cast LB and have time to cast CL + shock before the LB even connects. High base dmg short casts that with talented reductions retain high spell coefficients, it hurts.

1,5-3k 1,5-3k 1-2k all landing within milliseconds of each other, most players dont even run with 5k hp. And its just 2s for a max rank lb, 1,5s for cl; rather impossible stopping that consistently then. On top of that the sham can immune 2 spells while getting the casts of. If the sham team has decursers there is no counterplay really.
Just delete until you have to drink, then keep on deleting. So if shamans never have mana issues, that could be a problem.

But if that initial 1,5-3k happens 1s+ before the rest, then at least you have some time for healers to react, or the player to pop a health/nature pot or other defensive.

Still I think you have other less intrusive ways (than straight up buffs) to manage pve and target only pve.
Easiest would be to tune raid mob armor/resistances/ spell weaknesses (curse of elements; add all the other elements; 10% flat + 75 spell pen right there).

Could also be more involved and add beneficial affixes to the raids themselves (if pve was also made to be harder).
Casting/ attacking/ healing in a pve raid; spawns runes/orbs/other, that either directly restores mana and/or gives a stacking buff to regen/ dmg/healing.
Have every raid with different orbs/runes/effects themed to the raid in question.
Then you could scale and fine tune the buffs, each class collects. So balance pve that way.
And if they are only visible/ collectable to players within the same class; would also dissuade class stacking to a large degree. Say 10 orbs spawns for x class within 1-2mins, losing out then if half the raid are warriors. And certainly losing out if you have 0 of a class.

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That’s the issue, they’d be required items. Could also buff 0.5 bonus. Locks/Mages suck naked too, and classic isn’t perfect but i think its a good middle ground solution.

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1,5-3k 1,5-3k 1-2k all landing within milliseconds of each other, most players dont even run with 5k hp.

Yes, some specs also need to be nerf one way or another. Like ele shamans burst is to much. How about Elemental Mastery never affect both CL and shock? Still u can be lucky and have all of LB, CL and shoc crit tho.
Like I suggested in another reply, what if they buff the stamina on pvp gear? That could maybe help mitigate some of these burst problems. Also add alot of spellresistances to the pvp gear, since spellcasters are the stronger overall in pvp?

Still I think you have other less intrusive ways (than straight up buffs) to manage pve and target only pve.

One way for both eleshaman and enhancement shaman is to buff the dmg on searing totem quite alot. In that way you can increase the overall dps for both specs and not affect both specs “big burst problem”.

tune raid mob armor/resistances/ spell weaknesses

Curse of Elements should have Nature damage for sure. I dont know much about raidbosses spellresistances and how much it affects spelldmg dps.

Casting/ attacking/ healing in a pve raid; spawns runes/orbs/other, that either directly restores mana and/or gives a stacking buff to regen/ dmg/healing.

Cool idea and bold, but I think that this would greatly change the way classic raiding fundamentaly plays out.

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PvP Resillience :smiley:

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PvP Resillience :smiley:

I personaly dont like stats like pvp resilliance. It separates the gear to much between pve and pvp. Would much more like it to be as it is in Vanilla where the stats are simple enough to grasp. The world at large is more integrated with gear is much more openended. In my opinon, more stamina + spellresistance will likely achieve the goal just fine.

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Made an addition to the post with toughts on the Paladin. I will try to add more classes to the post in the future.

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