Suggestions to change M+

Community General Discussion
1

Only very recently resubbed, so not dipped my toes into M+ yet, but in each of the 3 prior expansions, my enjoyment of this system got progressively worse. I notice also several threads complaining about M+ leavers.

Scrap the timer from M+ up to the gear cap, have the ilevel cap be around the difficulty of +10 or +15 in Legion and let the competitive players deal with the timer AFTER the gear cap. Maybe they get more drops from end of dungeon, maybe they get cosmetic rewards, but maxing your weekly vault, given it is a single item a week, really doesnt need to be that hard.

The timers for casual players, particularly in PUGs, is not fun. It means you cannot replace leavers, it means there is never any kind of banter or social element, because that is inefficient and wastes time. It also means the only moment of excitement over gear is once a dungeon at the end. In BFA and Shadowlands, my best time running a dungeon was week 1 M0s, before they became trivial and when you cared about the gear. There is no reason why you cannot have scaling difficulty without a timer.

Without the timer, you can replace leavers. You can have a moment of excitement after every boss kill, not just potential disappointment at the end of the dungeon. The overall experience is less stressful. You can also scrap tyrannical and fortified, which are pretty universally disliked modifiers.

Instead, just have a weekly lockout for 3 levels of mythic+, each tier with an extra affix with end of dungeon rewards for 1, 2 and 3 affixes being equivalent to LFR, normal and heroic raids respectively, and your vault rewards being 1 tier higher based on the dungeons you ran.

This will also encourage a larger variety of dungeons being run due to the weekly lockout, not just a focus on which dungeon is most efficient to run once you have your score high enough. On that subject, there would be no need for raiderdotio or its equivalent in game. This toxic elitism is obviously a consequence of the timed nature of M+ and the inability to replace leavers. Players are not prepared to take a chance on someone who might fail.

Timers and key pushing should be for those who enjoyed challenge modes. There is nothing wrong with this existing, but the large majority of people were not interested in this. Why impose this style of gameplay on the entire playerbase?

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2

you still get loot if you dont time the key, you know that right?

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3

You clearly didnt read the post given how quickly you responded. As evident from the fact that you didnt actually understand my point.

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4

ye i dont read walls, but ye the gameplay you seek is already there, you just have to ignore the timer and collect loot. can be played just as any other dungeons.

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It would take all of 1 minute to read, if you cannot be arsed understanding what you are replying to, why reply?

And no, the gameplay I am after doesnt exist. Try telling a pug not to care about the timer. They do, and they leave, depleting your key. It only takes one player to do this. And if you dont make the timer, you cannot push the key and get to the higher ilevel keystones in the first place.

If you like timers, great. We had challenge modes for that. You can still be accommodated. But if you dont like timers, there is no alternative other than really crap gear and trivial difficulty level.

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so you want to just complete a key in 2 hours and have it be improived to +1?

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No, that isnā€™t what I said. Read the post or go away.

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:rofl: i disagree with your statements. bye.

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Well I am convinced by such a thorough explanation. And truly, your intellect is astounding. You have the ability to know if you agree with something or not without even reading it. Of course, it would have taken less time just to read it than write several replies clearly missing the point.

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you want basically just heroic dungeons or m0. they are already there, you just want better loot for doing easier content. thats all i can see by flash reading the highlights.

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No I dont. I specifically have an issue with the effects that timers have on gameplay and you havent addressed a single point I made in this regard.

As for difficulty, I specified Legion +15 levels which is WAY beyond M0 or heroic. I resubbed 4 days ago, and cleared 4 M0s without knowing any strategies with bad gear and without any difficulty at all. That is far too easy to be enjoyable.

Also, you are free to check my profile. I am not a fantastic player, but I did get the Mad World feat of strength on the first reset it was available for example. Again, this is way beyond Heroic or M0 difficulty and its impossible to get carried in solo content.

So please, stop with the moronic personal attacks. If you have nothing to say, dont.

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but timers for +15 are literally free ? if that is the level you aspire for the timer is almost a none issue.

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I dont know about this expansion, but the timer for a +15 in a pug in previous expansions, whilst certainly doable, were not ā€œfreeā€. I am reasonably sure you arent pugging M+ if you think they were.

In any case, it fundamentally changes the feel of gameplay. You never banter. Bad wipes means people leave and the entire run was a total waste. You dont get to loot individual bosses. The whole experience is made more toxic and more stressful.

In any case, if +15 timers are free, surely you would have no objection to just scrapping the timer for capping ilevels and leave it for players who specifically want to be competitive?

14

You want to be able to replace leavers, which is an argument i understand. But the other problem is people just kicking people out at the last boss and invite their friends for free loot.

In the current system you create your own group and go on the challenge with that group. Replacing players along the line would be completely against the whole M+ challenge. Like ā€˜for this boss i want to get x dispell, lets kick current healer and get that dispellā€™.

M+ is advertised always as content for coordinated groups. While you do get the freedom to do it with pugs, your better option is to try to do them with likeminded players in communities. With even the option to do it with voice, so there can be banter even during the dungeon run.

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Theyd have to nerf the loot to implement such a nerf to the contents difficulty. You want to remove risk of failure from competitive content?.

And as above said, replacing leavers would be abused. The kick function is abused too heavily to allow that.

Even in pugs, i prefer the timer. Im sorry, but theres no banter in raid chat, no banter in non timed dungeons.

Because the social platform has moved from the game and to voice through discord, and via voice thus allows free talking.

Ur clinging to a relic of the past, which will never come back. Social behaviours ended because players change, not the game.

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i think they should focus on making completing the dungeon worthwhile to prevent people from leaving if it isnt timed.
not sure how though. but outside of weekly and crafting reagents there is no reason to stay if the key isnt timeable.

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I played WOW since TBC. I can honestly never recall being kicked to be replaced on the last boss and I ran WAY more heroics in TBC particularly (this was pre group finder) than I care to admit. If each boss drops loot, you want to be there for the entire run.

As for replacing players for specific class capabilities, firstly, I am not talking about world first raiding difficulty here. That is a level of hassle which people simply wont bother with unless its necessary. It shouldnt be necessary and if it is, well you werent downing the boss anyway.

And given a weekly lock out, its hardly is if replacing several party members on a per fight basis is going to be all that convenient. In many cases, you will be asking someone to do you a favour as the replacement will usually want either a full run or not need the gear at all. It will be doable, but it will be a lot less convenient that just completing the run with one group, even if it isnt perfectly optimised for each fight.

Speaking from personal experience though, like with the return to Karazan in Legion (which was when first released really fantastic), it absolutely IS possible to get replacements part way through a run. You dont have that option in M+.

You also dont get the excitement of loot per boss, wipes are for more frustrating and toxic, taking time to consider alternative strategies for your group mid dungeon isnt really an option. It ruins the social experience of dungeons.

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I like timers even in low mplus, i get the excitmt from be faster every time.

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There is gear and unlimited valor in a week :slight_smile:

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I dont agree that there will be a significant issue of replacing players. It wont be worth the hassle unless your group actually cannot down the boss, in which case, you arent getting any further with the current group anyway.

What I am proposing is the same system you have with the megadungeons of the past 3 expansions and with heroics of old in expansions where they werent trivial like Cata and TBC. I have done all of these. Abusive kicks were rare, far less common an annoyance than M+ leavers. More commonly, I have seen absolute jerks kicked for good reason and that possibility actually helps to discourage toxicity.

I have lost weekly +15s to absolutely stupid rage quits, like a single death because a DPS was annoyed that he went full ham immediately whilst the tank was rounding up mobs, pulled threat and died. Without the timer, this would be a non issue.

Also, you dont need to nerf the gear. If you have a weekly lockout, why cannot the equivalent of an M+10 or +15 offer heroic raid gear quality? You get one shot a week and yes, its less hassle to organise, but actual gameplay wise, its comparable difficulty. and 1 great vault item a tier above your dungeon drops I suppose is a bit welfare, but lets be honest, if you gear through this, you will be WAY behind actual mythic raiders.

On the contrary, the spammable nature of current M+ is why the actual item drops have to be bad, to be upgraded with weekly capped currency.