Suggestions to change M+

If you don’t have a timer, then only tyrannical weeks will be a challenge. I would much rather prefer they add a +0 timer which could be another 20% added to a dungeon, but keep the other timers as they are. If you complete the +0 timer your key doesn’t deplete, but instead changes to a different key of the same level. It gives people a bit more leeway to practice on a specific level without having to re-build their key.

As per my first post, you would scrap these affixes. I think these are viewed negatively anyway.

I think the large majority have absolutely 0 problem with timers.

Based on what? How many people did challenge runs, precisely? Are megadungeons unpopular when first released without timers, or do people enjoy them more than the standard M+? And I have seen multiple recent threads complaining about leavers. This is an issue specifically due to the timer.

And to repeat, by all means, keep timers as a challenge mode. When they are moderately creative and are for a bonus rather than a binary pass fail (like Nightbane runs in Kara or the bear runs in Zul Aman), I like them. When the entire 5 man scene revolves around them, it has a large number of negative impacts on gameplay that are very pug unfriendly.

what you said is just not true. i have often plenty of banter and laugh when i do m+ with people on discord.

you have very nicely functioning voice chat in game.

just because people refuse to act social in pugs it doesnt mean all people are like that

find a guild that does m+ toghther and you will have plenty of time for social interactions while doing m+

its 2023 - the era of typing in game and "guys i dont have a mic " is long gone. stop behaving like dinosaurs.

Based on what was the statement that the majority HAS a problem with timers? Exactly, on nothing.

And the problem people have with leavers is that they leave on the first pull with still plenty of time. The complaint is about people leaving too early when the dungeon is still doable in time.

If you are M+ing on discord, this is not the representative PUG experience. As someone who does PUG because I dont have the inclination to play WOW in an organised fashion on a schedule, the experience of M+ is much more antisocial than pugging heroics in TBC or the megadungeons for example.

The M+ format emphasises efficiency over fun. That is why RIO is a thing, that is why everyone is GOGOGO mentality. That is why people jettison other people’s keystones if something goes wrong.

Also, what you are describing are ways to mitigate the issues with the M+ format and in so doing, tacitly acknowledge these issues exist. You do not, however, explain why the timer is actually a good thing.

Oh, and I dont have a mic.

Based on what was the statement that the majority HAS a problem with timers? Exactly, on nothing.

And the problem people have with leavers is that they leave on the first pull with still plenty of time. The complaint is about people leaving too early when the dungeon is still doable in time.

Based on revealed prefence. What do people do if given the choice. Challenge modes gave people the choice and they were not popular. Megadungeons are well received and have no timers, as is the case for raids.

If you left the M+ format exactly the same (I dont recommend doing this) but you could elect that have a timer and no ability to replace or not, what do you think people would go for?

If you then added in per boss loot and trash loot, it wouldn’t even be a close call.

where do you see that valor cap will be removed next week ?

Conquest and Valor to Become Uncapped - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (blizzard.com)

majority never comes to forums. you have here like 100-200 people out of 500k - 1 mln . meaningless .

Where you know this? Where is the numbers you take your argument from? From like maximal 20 threads in forum, that dislike the timers with together maybe 300 likes? Im not sure man the most people i know participate in mplus like the challenge, even the biggest casuales that only play the first 2 months liked it. But they just casuals and playing on off for 2 months in game since ever… so idunno where you get this “major of people dont like it”

1 Like

Yes, because we want to play with players on a similar skill level, not boost George and Andys first dungeon run.

You dont need RIO to see if its someone’s first dungeon run. The reality is that RIO means in PUGs, you will generally only get selected if A) they are struggling to find a tank or healer or B) your score indicates you are capable of doing far in excess of the content in question. The timer makes people very risk averse and therefore require someone above the requisite skill and gear level to be considered.

this post proves that you are looking in m+ for soemthing that was never meant to be there.

if the experience you are looking for is thc hc dungeons or megadungeons you have it in game. its called m0 .

you have there loot on every boss and can spend even a week in 1 dungeon if you choose to.

seems like m+ are not content for you - and its ok.

without timer nothing will change

Yeah but when it is about a problem with the timers. Currently the cut off for KSM is 22-23%. KSM is timing all dungeons on about +13-14. This means the far majority of players is doing keys below +13. And on those levels the timer is really non existent.
All dungeons on +10 is currently on 33%… When we speak about the majority we really speak about the lower key-levels.

same like majority never hc raids or never rated pvp .

because they are not good enough.

and just like people fail +15 with like 400 itlv this week next week they will still fail +15 even when they will farm up all the vp to get themsleves to 411 itlv.

because they dont have skills to complete it.

hardmodes in game were always a niche activity .

i cannot speak for others - but i can tell you that atm i have way much more fun leveling my 10 alts to max level thtough normal dungeons then doing even 1 x 16 + for weekly GV.

why ? because its fun easy mindless fun .

and when i weight my options - do i want to push for like 18s to maaaybe upgrade gear by those extra few itlv - im like nah … it i rather level up alts and farm some transmogs in old raids till the end of season which will reset gear anyway and give catch up gear for my alts.

Well, speaking for my group. We blasted the +15’s on tournament realm this weekend since we had the gear. Of the same dungeons we had to walk out last week becauase we couldnt kill the bosses on +16 (RLP). Ilvl is going to carry pretty far. We needed multiple tries on jade serpent +15 on live and just timed it. On tournament realm we were about 15 minutes in time :joy: Gear is king in this game.

Yes, a lot would change. Most obviously, mistakes matter less and there isnt a time pressure. But also, you can replace leavers. You can have individual loot on bosses and trash, because there isnt a timer. Lots of things can improve. And again, you havent said why the timer is good.

itwould matter exacktly the same

the same people who bail on run woudl still bail because they woudl still refuse to carry baddies for free or they cba to spend 2 hours in a dungeon that shoudl take 30 minutes tops.

timed nature affects design of encounters and creates toxic environment, cause one persons mistake can ruin the run for others.

no puzzle/variable type content or slower, but longer paths, no options for making boss designs, that allow slower and safer options etc.

Why make M+ when you don’t like them?
If you want to play relaxed and deplete all the runs, go ahead, but between friends and guild who are experts in this, you don’t get into the pugs to ruin the game of others.

I like 5 man dungeons and I like scaleable difficulty. I dont like the M+ format specifically. There is absolutely no reason you cannot have non trivial 5 man content without a timer.

itwould matter exacktly the same

the same people who bail on run woudl still bail because they woudl still refuse to carry baddies for free or they cba to spend 2 hours in a dungeon that shoudl take 30 minutes tops.

This is clearly false. You dont get the same issues with megadungeons, and you didnt get these issues in TBC heroics, which at the time were pretty hard.

Many of the problems with mythic+ - the fact that you only get anything at all if you finish, the fact you cannot replace leavers and the fact that you MUST rush and the inherently antisocial, stress and potential toxicity this entails - are a direct consequence of it being timed.