Sylvanas and a force greater than the Void


(Zarao) #21

And you are seemingly trying to get a hold of wording for the sake of arguing.

Made myself abundantly clear:
Blizzard repeating those lines point at them wanting to highlight their relevance. And yes, that means they are definitely up to something regarding them.


#22

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Thanks man, that made my day.


(Lukas) #23

Despite a large number of Twilight’s Hammer members being Forsaken. Which is strange. I guess they’re just being evil because they like being evil?


#24

Why should the Forsaken be immune to their whispers anyway? If it is true that they are free-willed, then there is nothing stopping them from falling for the Void Lords’ promises of power. As opposed to the Scourge minions who don’t have a mind of their own because they are basically robots created to follow the Lich King’s program, so they don’t even hear those whispers because they just hear the Lich King’s.

It’s not that the Scourge are immune because they are undead, they would be immune even if they were orcs. So long as you are mind-controlled by X and constantly hear the whispers of X, you will always be immune to the whispers of Y.


#25

Suppose the undead are immune to the whispers of the void, and Sylvanas turns everything into a state of undeath, how does that actually stop the Void? Also, Void-based begins have been shown to raise the undead under their command, so why should they fear something they can already command?

Void lords don’t exist in the physical universe and require a Void titan to even enter, how would a world with undead stop them? They could simply fling as many Old Gods as they can, while the undead would be finite, since all the living are now undead and cannot reproduce. Eventually they’ll keep getting killed, and some might be able to be resurrected, but the Void can win by attrition.

They could simply manipulate those without blatantly mind-controlling them. After all there were undead in the Twilight’s Hammer, as someone else already posted. Undead aren’t the most mentally stable people, and preying on vulnerabilities doesn’t require them the whisper endlessly.

AFAIK, the Void does not need to feed to stay alive, it is a primordial force of the universe, like the Light.


#26

Aren’t the cultists willing participants? They don’t need to be corrupted or controlled to do that.


(Zarao) #27

It doesn’t need to.

But the animosity between Undeath and the Void predates BfA by a long shot.

And the resilience to its influence has been teased in the fact that Arthas and his underlings managed to build an entire fortress out of a substance that came from the blood of an Old God. Something that was quite corrupting. (And additional stuff like Scourge members scorning Yogg Saron while mining such).

Point being, there doesn’t need to be some ultimate plan about Death being anathema or nemesis of the Void, to the point its our best card to defeat it.

But it does mean that given the information we’ve been given so far, it might be something the Void severely dislikes/hates/fears.


#28

Or the theories about that do, at least… It’s always been very, very, very vague and before the Chronicles came out no one even really saw them as seperate forces.


#29

Let’s start from the assumption that the Void Lords can whisper to the undead, since there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be able to physically influence their minds like they do with every mortal and even some deities.

If an undead chooses to join the Twilight’s Hammer it means it has free will. If it has free will it means it can fall for the Void Lords’ promises of power because it can choose to do what they tell him to do. If it falls for their promises, it is just lured into a spiral of madness. Therefore, if the undead is free-willed, it is vulnerable to corruption from the whispers of the Void Lords.


#30

The information given is spotty at best, and making a definitive conclusion is a reach. Void-based creatures freely resurrect and use undead. Furthermore, the Nathrezim who were the earliest practitioners of necromancy as well as void magics, made no note of any such incompatibilities AFAIK.

A more plausible interpretation IMO, is that Yogg-Saron hates Arthas’s domain over Death which he believes to be rightfully his.

Also, Saronite destroyed Sylvanas when she chose to commit suicide, before she was subsequent;y resurrected by the nine Val’kyr.


(Zarao) #31

Much more plausible than simply handwaving whatever is thrown at us regarding teasers about future plots.

There is a theoretical infinite amount of possible explanations regarding why Yogg Saron hated Arthas, why the Scourge didn’t turn into Old God puppets even if they were literally surrounded by it’s blood (something that was described as corruptive), or why the Lich King minions scorned Yogg Saron.
To the above, we now have to add a recurring tease that has Void entities particularly interested in killing Sylvanas (or some other “she” that deserves the same kind of “hatespeech” she got from the entity meddling with Alleria :roll_eyes:).

Not saying it’s a certainty. But it’s definetly pointing towards something that will probably happen in the near future.

And it doesn’t require a convoluted plan that turns undeath into the ultimate tool against N’Zoth. It might merely indicate that it’s considered a useful weapon or something that can be turned into the factions advantage in the final fight.

The hints are plain to see. With other writers we could have expected some sort of complicated ruse to create some final twist.
But this is Blizzard and a teen-tier videogame writing. Not Game of Thrones.


#32

Not even close.


#33

This isn’t the first plot line to be ignored, nor the last. It being ignored is always a possibility, especially in an MMO, where the story rotates writers every few expacs, who all have different ideas on how to progress the story and character arcs.

Invoking Occam’s razor, IMO it’s more plausible to argue those hints as being independent events, rather than some drawn out convoluted antipathy between 2 forces, which have only been recently separated in the universe


#34

All this is truly very intersting mostly for all the probabilities it can create for future warcraft lore.

Just like every force, light void etc it all comes down to the user in the end, just as the Xeera example you mentioned with illidan.

Now as for Sylvannas maybe I cant be objective cause I am a fanboy, but the Valkyr when they brought her back they told her it was for her to fulfil a specific purpose. So I very much certain Sylvannas has some information from the Valkyr and perhaps Helya too about all this death and shadowlands things going on.

Combine that with the quotes the ghosts say when you enter the other side with Voljin and u kill them they quote “You have made a dire enemy”.

So surely there us a death/shadowlands entity that rivals Nzoth or the Void in power which would explain all these whispers.

On the other hand, Nzoths quoted mention “The light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all. Only I can save you from what is to come”

So I guess there will be some nececity for Nzoth/void to do something which would be where Alleria comes in. In the thousand year war when she first saw visions from the void one of them quotes “She saw herself killing the great one, and taking his place”.

In the end what is shown is that each force vies for dominion whether its light void death etc and Azeroth is the prize.


#35

Well I guess it’s because they are Undead yes… Just read the description of Mind Control, “Does not work versus Demonic, Mechanical, or Undead beings.”. There’s also Will of the Forsaken which comes in very handy, because from Locus-Walker we know that you can resist the void corruption if you have something you really believe in and value a lot, for the Forsaken that being their Banshee Queen. It’s also safe to assume Sylvanas has the ability to manipulate the Undead raised by her Val’kyr.

But if consciousness and free will are a problem, she always has the alternative of raising mindless undead like she did at the beginning of this expansion in Siege of Lordaeron, and by the way, she can also control them, like the Lich King did with the Scourge.

So yes, it’s not a far stretch. But I will also put emphasis on the fact that Sylvanas is using Xal’atath to see what the Black Empire is up to. Also add that to the list of why the Void really wants her gone.

And if you’re not convinced yet, go through the comic Three Sisters where Sylvanas calls Alleria an abomination for being a vessel for the void.
The evidence is quite abundant.


#36

Following your logic Mind Control works against the Forsaken because they are marked as Humanoid. Could we not waste time with gameplay defiinitions?

If Sylvanas starts raising mindless undead at every chance she gets she will have even more targets on her back than before, so it’s not a preferable strategy.

Where did you even get the idea that Sylvanas is using Xal’athath to see what the Black Empire is up to? Last I checked, Sylvanas didn’t clairify why she wanted the Dagger, why it should be their key to victory, and the Dagger is pretty useless now since Xal’athath got her own body and bailed out.

The Void wants her gone as much as they want Turalyon and Vereesa gone, as much as they want gone anyone who is not their servants. And this hatred isn’t directed only at Death, the Void fights with pretty much every other force in the universe, be it the Naaru, the Legion, the Order of the Titans, and Life itself (remember Deathwing’s assault on the Life-Binder)? Again, they are not obsessed with Sylvanas, or Death specifically, and you cited that terribly-looking comic which shows the Void Lords trying to have Alleria kill Turalyon and Vereesa too.

Finally, Sylvanas calling Alleria an abomination for being a vessel for the Void does not mean ANYTHING when pretty much anyone who isn’t affiliated with the Void thinks that being a vessel of the Void makes you an abomination, that’s not peculiar to Sylvanas. Your evidence, if it can even be called so, because cryptic whispers from deceitful tricksters are not solid evidence, is flimsy at best and rather unconvincing.


#37

Mind Control works against Forsaken ingame because Blizz made them Humanoid since they are playable race, but technically they are still Undead. It’s one of those things that don’t make sense, but it’s for gameplay purposes rather than lore.

Well she can control the mindless undead if she raised them. In Siege of Lordaeron she commands them to attack the Alliance, which they do. So no, they would not be a target to her. Rewatch/replay the scenario if you are in doubt.

No, the dagger is far from useless. Nathanos was instructed by Sylvanas to use the dagger to lure the Alliance to Nazjatar. No one knew where Nazjatar was, but through the dagger they could see.
“Xal’atath… a fascinating weapon. I have heard tales of its exploits.
A pity it now lies dormant. But anything that slumbers can be awakened.
This blade is more than a mere dagger. It is a torch that shall light our path forward.
Soon I will call upon you again, champion. And together, we will steer the Horde toward its destiny.
The Alliance believes that by striking down Rastakhan and decimating the Zandalari fleet, they have broken us. That the Horde will soon crumble.
Fools. The boy-king has lied to himself and his people. He hasn’t the faintest inkling of what he’s truly up against.
War is a living thing. It writhes, it grows, twisting and turning until its final form is revealed.
This war is about to shift yet again. And it will be this blade that guides our way to victory.” - Sylvanas


#38

Exactly, that’s what I am saying, talking about descriptions of abilities in a lore discussion is pointless, as much as it is pointless to wonder why Jaina still has a functioning brain (allegedly) after a random Shadow Priest player casted Mind Flay on her.

Well she can control the mindless undead if she raised them. In Siege of Lordaeron she commands them to attack the Alliance, which they do. So no, they would not be a target to her. Rewatch/replay the scenario if you are in doubt.

I said she would have more targets on her back because many Horde leaders are already tired of her, if she acted even more like the Lich King that she already is, pretty much everyone would hate her then. Do you think Geya’rah would still be loyal if she saw her Queen raise every mag’har orc who died in a battlefield ala Arthas with Saurfang?

Also, if she can control the mindless undead, why are they mindlessly roaming the charred ruins of Lordaeron instead of being directed towards an Alliance target?

No, the dagger is far from useless. Nathanos was instructed by Sylvanas to use the dagger to lure the Alliance to Nazjatar. No one knew where Nazjatar was, but through the dagger they could see.

I mean, No, what you posted does not even imply that Xal’athath made her see where Nazjatar was. For all we know, neither Sylvanas nor Nathanos knew where Nazjatar was, or if they were even going to Nazjatar, for all we know Xal’athath could have just whispered to them “Go to point A, don’t ask questions” and that’s it. It is your headcanon that Xal’athath showed them a vision or the position of Nazjatar, or even told them that they were being directed to Nazjatar in the first place.


#39

Taken from Chronicle Volume 3.

"He spent a few years recovering his strength and planning his next move. As a paladin, Arthas had always sought to bring order and justice to Azeroth. That desire remained, but it was now far more twisted than ever before.

A world ruled by the undead would have no more injustice, no more wars, no more mortal flaws. Perhaps most importantly to the Lich King, he believed his Scourge would be far more capable of defending Azeroth against the threats that would try to conquer it. He had observed the awakening of C’Thun and the Burning Legion’s attempts to launch other attacks on Azeroth. Neither the demons nor the powers of the Void would rest until they controlled the world. A fractured world, constantly beset by skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde, simply would not be prepared for another incursion."


#40

Aside from the fact that that quote has nothing to do with what we are talking about, you are not proving anything.

Of course a world controlled by a single faction would be stronger, but that is not unique to the Scourge. The world does not need the Scourge. The world needs a single faction, which doesn’t have to be the Scourge, or any Undead faction for that matter.

A world united under the Legion would not be stronger against the Void Lords? Or a world united under the Black Empire or the Lightbound wouldn’t be stronger against the Legion?

A world ruled by the undead would have no more injustice, no more wars, no more mortal flaws.

There can’t be any injustice or war if everyone is dead:

https://i.imgflip.com/1jtz7x.jpg

Neither the demons nor the powers of the Void would rest until they controlled the world. A fractured world, constantly beset by skirmishes between the Alliance and the Horde, simply would not be prepared for another incursion."

A few years later:

A fractured world beset by skirmishes between Alliance and Horde defeats the greatest Legion Invasion in history and successfully brings Argus to its knees.