Sylvanas fate

Lore Story
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I was more referring to the moral reflection of the story Blizzard are telling.

If we think about real-life, then there are some human values that we tend to idealize and strive toward and recognize as good.

Love, compassion, forgiveness.

And we champion those in life who embody these human virtues. For example:




But life’s lesson is that it’s really hard to truly embody these ideals.

It’s really hard to forgive those who have locked you in prison for 27 years.
It’s really hard to have compassion for those who have only hate for you.
It’s really hard to choose a path of peace when confronted with violence.

So we recognize those few who truly can live these ideals as heroes.

And Blizzard basically takes that struggle and builds a story around it.

They create a villain who does some terrible things.

And then they present players with a journey where they learn about love, compassion, and forgiveness through stories where they’re confronted with hate, vengeance, and subjugation.

And players recognize that love, compassion, and forgiveness are the virtues to strive toward.

And then (I’m guessing) Blizzard presents the final challenge to players.

Sylvanas.

With all that they’ve learned about what it means to be good, can they hold onto those ideals when they have to be applied to her? Or are they consumed by hate, vengeance, and a desire to punish?

That’s the struggle. It’s the struggle for Anduin. It’s the struggle for Tyrande. It’s the struggle for Uther.

And it’s the struggle for us.

It’s hard to be good.

I think that’s a powerful story message to try and convey in WoW.

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The only “moral” I see in the story told by blizzard is that of nepotism. Happened to be someone’s favourite? Get the promotion!

Burning the tree™? Who cares. But touching Jaina’s brother - now that is too much.

Or how Anduin did not bother doing anything to address the situations in his kingdom (Westfall is still a ruin, and Darkshire too), but who cares, filthy peasants do not count for statements like “king, who would do everything for his people”.

The expansion full of revenge plots? Monument to vengeance in the Maw, helping a soul with revenge, helping fungarians with revenge, helping Xandria with Revenge, etc. But for that specific character - no, you can’t have revenge after years of build up!

Because stories like that can work in the narrative where one can have it, and other arbitrary can’t. Forsaken story about how bad they are not forgiving Scarlets, when?
:man_shrugging:

It just does not work for me because of the lack of coherent application of those ideas across the narrative.

My struggle was

Very well, I pledge ta lend ya me powers ta use against ya foes. In exchange, ya be sendin’ one million souls ta Bwonsamdi! No need ta look shocked, ya be plenty capable of doing dis.

Different characters do different stuff. DHs are vengeance incarnate. DK is a walking killing machine that have to make others suffer.

All of those things would need to be taken into account for a story to be effective. It’s not just about preferences of the devs. It has to keep in mind the audience that happens to pay (or not) for continuing development.

gl hf

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212

I was merely elaborating on what I meant when I said:

Beyond that it’s not really my business to address other people’s issues with the story. I’m only accounting for the way I see it, and I’m always happy to share my thoughts on that. :slight_smile:

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Would you kindly share your thoughts on how is the story supposed to work, when you have all locations with various revenge plots leading to positive results, and then the story goes like “but not you, pointy ear!”

gl hf

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I think it works fine for the time being.

I’m making the assumption that Sylvanas is going to repent what she has done. If that doesn’t happen, then I’ll have to adjust my view on the story accordingly. There are other paths Blizzard can pursue to convey other story messages. But I’m going with the one I outlined above, for now. :slight_smile:

Anyway,

With regards to the Kyrian fighting the Maldraxxus army, then they’re doing it for justice. They were attacked. The attackers have no regret or intention of withdrawing, so the Kyrian fight to defend their realm and their fellow Ascended. Defeating the invaders is retribution for the fallen and justice for the crime committed.

I’m speculating that Sylvanas will be different in the sense that she’s going to repent her actions. And the moral response to that ought to be forgiveness. That is the God ideal, right? If you repent your sins, then God forgives you and welcomes you into Heaven.

Pet Shop Boys has a wonderful song about it:

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Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

© Matthew 10:39

So, depends? I guess in pop culture way it might be the case.

edit:
kyrians were fighting the alliance of the Jailer. So it happened Sylvanas was the key for many things the Jailer accomplished. Something does not add up. But I digress.

gl hf

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In my initial post in the thread I said the story was akin to:

And I’ll still stick with that until Blizzard develops the story in a different direction. :yum:
But it does feel like Blizzard have sought some inspiration in the Bible for their story in The Shadowlands, which is perhaps not too surprising.

So repentance, forgiveness, absolution. And maybe ascension? We’ll see.

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No, no. It’s not a question of interpretaion. She literally says stuff like

Xandria says: My vengeance upon you!

dirung quests.

At which point you need to make the choice: vengeance can be the path to justice or not?

The story about “do not pick vengeance” could be told. But it shall be coherent.

Fungarians by gathering together for revenge, could only expose themselves to be captured.

Revenge in the Maw could make the torture for other souls more vile.

Xandria’s rush actions could’ve been something that Vyraz take advantage of, and could’ve been the way for Kel’thuzad to get the blood of the bearer.

This story could exist. It would not feel good because that would be betrayal of the set up in the story. But at least it could’ve been something evolving the story instead of damaging it. Say, take

Gorribal the Dark Seether. Wielded by Sargeras, this weapon embodies the darkness that exists in all beings, even noble ones.

And they could use this RPG lore bit, but both push the Azeroth story, and make it clear that someone who knows a lot about souls is a formidable foe, which might use any opportunity, including this darkness in every soul.

But that did not happen. In the story it’s possible to have “feel good” revenge stories. Which makes this one stink extra hard.

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That’s not how it comes across to me. There is a difference between the Kyrian who fight to defend their realm and then Xandria who is consumed by rage after Thanikos is turned into an abomination. She goes after the Maldraxxus guy into the instance itself, seeking vengeance. And we have to go after her, because she just went off on a personal vendetta and broke line. Leeeerooooy!
She’s fallible, even though she is a Paragon.

The whole questline is remniscent of any war movie where they’re defending a position, and then someone’s buddy gets killed and they get consumed with rage and charge off into enemy territory to get vengeance. And then the rest of the platoon is forced to follow, in order to save their hot-headed friend.
It doesn’t mean it’s not justice to defend. It just shows that people are easily overcome with emotion - rage, anger, vengeance - clouding their judgement.

Again, I can only account for my own experience with the story, and to me it works fine and I get meaning out of it.

Your experience is simply not my experience.

If you have a bunch of issues with the story that hamper your ability to make sense of it, then that’s for you to struggle with.

Like I said before, then it’s not my business to address other people’s issues with the story, I can only explain how I percieve it. :slight_smile:

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My struggle is over, so there is not much.

Which is nice and all.

I tried to get out of you how exactly do you see a story working when it gives successful revenge plots for all but 1 character.

I find it somewhat dishonest when Xandria’s vengeance resulting in killing a servant of the Jailer (Gharmal in this scenario) is called “justice”, yet another case of revenge agains a servant of the Jailer suddenly is not.

But it’s not for me to judge. I tried to understand other position / opinion, but I am not sure I can when the same thing is interpreted differently for different characters. Sometimes vengeance is bad, and sometimes vengeance is the right way to accomplish the task. Go figure how it works as 1 system.

Anyway, thanks for sharing thoughts.

gl hf

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For me the Kyrian storyline runs parallel to Uther’s story.
Like when Uther throws Arthas into The Maw he claims it’s justice, but he later comes to the realization that it wasn’t. I have yet to play the latest story chapter, but that realization and contemplation seems to be at the heart of the story. Finding the true “path”.

And it’s the same with the Kyrian. They follow “the path”, but the path is flawed. And the various Kyrian characters and their actions reflect that. They say some things and do some actions that don’t quite add up. That whole moral lesson about what it means to be good is difficult to apply to the Kyrian. Despite how holy and pure they appear, they are fallible.

And like Uther they also end up reflecting and contemplating and changing their ways.

I mean, that’s the story of Bastion, right? Their path is flawed. And as we help them deal with their struggles they come to that realization themselves and we end up with a happy ending, so to speak.

It’s the same in the other zones. The Venthyr in Revendreth are supposed to help people atone for their sins, but they’ve largely forgotten “Revendreth’s noble purpose” and now just take sadistic pleasure in inflicting torment on others.
And the story of the zone is a bit the same with them also having a break with their old way.

If Shadowlands is a metaphor for Heaven, then we’re basically just going about solving all the problems with it, so it becomes more of an ideal afterlife.
Same thing we do every expansion. New land with problems? Let’s fix it! Yay, now it’s fixed so it’s back to being how it should be! Hurray, happy ending.
With Shadowlands it just seems to be a spin on what the afterlife should be.

Anytime. :slight_smile:

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Yaaah mah queen’s back i knew there was some part of her that was fighting against her prision.

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223

Wrong. I like it quite a lot.

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Wrong. I love it. Now we have the chance to get our ranger general back. I might make her Queen of Silvermoon. My lady deserves nothing but the best.

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I was surprised…not in a bad or good way, just surprised. I wonder if Sylvanas’ and Tyrande’s fates are further entwined. Maybe they will off each other in a bar fist brawl in Goldshire? Or become BFFs and chill over an ale? Currently, I consider both scenarios equally likely. :rofl:

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She’s mah queen!

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Sylvanas is going to save Anduin! Who knows!

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According to the information that was leaked out to the streamers by Blizzard via e-mails, WoW is for now set up for 3 more expansions. In the first expansion races of Azeroth will return home and begin process of rebuilding.

Since Horde got beat up more than the Alliance in past few years they will have some rest now as troubles will focus now on the “good” guys.

If Sylvanas survives Shadowlands and returns to the Horde I guess she will take some part in rebuilding process. Because Dev team is going to focus in large part on lore rebuilding.

Sylvanas current story is a mess. It cannot be left as it is because otherwise the only solution would be to put it out of it’s misery. Some people belive that her story is beyond repair and this needs to happen.

So in my humble opinion Sylvanas is not going to be get ridden of. There will be an attempt to salvage as much of her charactger as possible.

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But what is left? I’m thinking she will have to become someone new (be recreated) if her continued presence is to make any sense. If vengeance is to be everything on her agenda continuously, she will be better off dead…as in dead-dead. Because that concept is just too repeat and hollow for someone like her. In my opinion, that is.