If you think so… do so. Doesn’t change anything about the rest of by post. SL Mists 15 was definitely easier than a Mists +8 now - we have to work harder for less reward, makes ppl toxic.
He isn’t completely wrong. When you would compare highest vault from SL +15 and now +10. The current +10 is way harder than the old +15 SL. Also i would say the current +10 is harder than at least the DF s3 +20. But maybe it is somewhat equal to the DF s2?
“the actual reason is not the balancing issues imo, i personally don’t play tank because i have absolutely no place to learn how to play it until i start doing m+ and after that you’re expected to act fast with little to no mistakes.
also i don’t want to remember every single pack’s position and mechanics and put out a diagram to follow it’s literally the nerdy role of the game, yes you learn mechanics in other roles as well but tank’s homework is just way too much and reward for that is basically nothing”
That is one of the main problems in the moment, resulting in all the rest of the issues. You just cant learn tanking or dungeon mechanics outside of m+, as everything is so easy until m+, that people just ignore all mechanics and just dps themselves through all content.
But suddenly reaching m+, suddenly new mechanics are added to mobs, you have time pressure and can even ruin peoples keys by doing simple mistakes (which they usually dont like and dont take without flaming). And you cant even learn stuff here, as after the first wipe, usually at least one guy leaves.
Progression needs to be changed to be proper again, content below m+ needs to be balanced to be useful and m+ time pressure should only be a bonus (or only apply in high keys) and not be normal in all runs.
Why not balance dungeons harder (and scaling them harder with higher keys), but not having a time limit? Would solve lots of the problems mentioned in this thread.
Let’s say for the sake of argument that he isn’t wrong and the levels are indeed equal to said values. That also means that players got more skilled as they battle content they couldn’t do prior, as the participation percentages don’t reflect the same curve.
Also, a +10 currently is by no means difficult. That it was easier before, well, could be. But that doesn’t mean that the current max-reward content is objectively hard once a little geared.
Whether it’s hard enough or too hard compared to the reward…that’s unrelated to the difficulty curve in previous expansions and overall a weird argument to bring in honestly. And by no means does it explain toxicity that players face.
I am not disagreeing at all. But there’s an argument to make.
Like always we see a drop off in participation on max reward keylevel. So i suppose more people now try to get to +10, while before they went to +18, or +15 or whatever the number was. Then it would look like people got ‘more skilled’ now. People just stop later.
When it is now harder, more people get frustrated which can turn into more toxicity, i suppose? At least thats the reasoning. While personally i don’t really experience it, but lets say i at least try to listen to what others are saying. I dont think people got higher skilled. People just get into higher content for the rewards and fail more often and get into ‘toxicity’ because of that.
To me it is currently hard to judge the rewards are rightfully set. I am timing now 12’s and on my alt i am also relatively easy blasting +10’s. But to be fair; in seasons where +15 was the max i got to +23 keys, and in DF i got in s2 to +24 and in s3 to +26 where +18 was the max vault reward.
I can hardly judge something is too hard compared to the reward right now. But i do think objectively it is a bit harder now than we had before. Blizz can decide the rewards are correctly set.
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I can speak fromy experience.
I started the season as a healer and managed to get almost all 13 done. But i decided its not for me since i had 2 much stress, dungeons are horrible to heal and difficulty spikes are insane. Plus the tanks dying all the freaking time through one shots made my healer life miserable ( more on that later)
I rolled a dps and rerolled main and oh boy the difference is staggering. I have not a single care in the world, i dont grip my teeth to make it happen , nor do i feel helpless. I have fun and currently progressing+14s.
Then i rolled an alt, tank VDH . Oh my god i have yo be on my toes 24/7 even on low dungeons. Like i cant relax at all. I dont want to be afraid of getting one shotted any minute. I managed to do +10 on 610 ilvl but it was beyond stressful. I legit sweated every single pull. Its not fun. And guess what? I had moments where a single mistake and me going from 100-0 in a second. Group wipes cause of that and it’s over. Most of my bricks as a tank was me getting oneshotted. Yikes.
Back to my dps toon which is also fotm and i get insta invs. Probably i will quit the season till 11.1 since game is stale/bad and gearing up alts is a slog. Who tf wants to do 100?+ Dungeons to gear up?
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Tanking is something that just has to suit the persons playstyle. As long term player, I’ve only been tempted tanking just to set the paste. But pugs are just not fun as a tank. Also learning what paths to run in M+ to get the % is just another thing that doesnt appeal to me.
Than the other fact is the only tank i’d like to try would be brewmaster but everywhere I look, I see only negativity about the spec.
Tanking was a nicer experience in vanilla/tbc imo. M+ in general is way to cluttered.
A.s a PvP player mainly, I decided to heal some M+ as a mistweaver and im in disbelief how much WeakAura’s and extra addons I’ve downloaded. And to be fair I dislike it a lot. I want a clean UI and the game to be intuitive and its not.
IMO the problem is following: Blizz made changes to make us all stick more together, e.g. tank and healer relation, DPS players needing to involve more in group well-being and so on. I believe that is why they made tank changes in the first place, maybe after seeing popular mentions that WoW is no longer MMO and there is no social aspect, from various sources.
However, combined with more hearthy difficulty progression and wish to remove the notion that players gets BiS for free (again maybe various sources of people saying this), it didn’t work well.
We as collective maybe don’t want to be more mutually dependent on each other in good faith, we probably mostly view other players as means to our own ends, and most of us doesn’t care about anything else than meeting our goals, getting the loot and ticking off item in checklist.
And I am not going to lie or persuade anyone here to do better. A week and half ago, I stopped tanking and returned to my Rogue, in approx 10 days I got to 2,7k RIO, got 4/8 Mythic raid and continue chilling with DPS spec. I love it. And I don’t see reason to return to my tank as I have gear fully done, and every other potential update is unfeasible from economical point of view.
In game, I don’t care about anything else other than meeting my goals and getting my BIS items, then I drop out of uncoordianted PvE completely and stick to my guildmates and friends only.
So, after all, I am one less tank in the system.
So if I understand it right your solution to the problem your proposal creates is to run…one copy of a class for each content type?
If someone has a problem with collecting several sets on the same char - yes. I mean, it’s the same now with PvP and PvE gear, so I don’t see the problem. Back before stats on gear ot the same armortype switched, a druid or a paladin also had to have two sets just to play cat/bear and tee/owl or tank/reti and heal. And most ppl here usually complain that they “are forced” to play different content types instead of just their favorite one because of BIS items, so the easiest is simply to just play one mode and not several.
at least as a healer i basically didnt even need to rotate cds to heal the group in +20 DF dungeons. that felt it started at +23 or so. Now it even starts in +7 already that your group can flop of unavoidable aoes if you dont counter heal them during the aoe event.
Eh, in +7s there aren’t so many unavoidable AOEs which are thát painful? I don’t know of many at least. Perhaps Tyrannical Dawnbreaker second boss comes close. Otherwise…no idea.
cot boss 2, 3, 4 on tyrannical
cot beetles and poison beetle on porkified
dawnbringer dot + aoe overlaps at the mini bosses on fortified
mists double trashing fury (sometimes both go off at the same time)
just a few i can tell from my 3 seconds thinking about it.
i m pretty sure all of them are deadly if not counter healed immediately
I doubt it on a +7 with ok-ish gear. Sure, if you run in with 593ilvl you’re gonna have a bad time. But HP goes up rapidly with ilvl, so once a little geared I doubt that these are all deadly without immediate healing intervention.
I think most of these mechanics only become troublesome when mixed with either the healing-absorb affix, or other heavy-hitting single-target mechanics (which are more of a personal-cd type of mechanic than a healing one).
But sure, some of these may actually require immediate intervention of a healer. I’ve healed quite some of them, and I can’t remember stressing at many. The two mobs before the third boss in GB are actually the worst from my experience…maybe those are a weird exception.
In COT, just have a poison cleansing totem and suddenly that poison beetle requires 0 healing.
I have been in an unfinishable +8 and +10 CoT. The 8 on my 620 mistweaver, the +10 on my 630 resto shaman. That last boss requires some real business from the other players than the healer, unfortunately. Dawnbreaker 2nd and 3rd boss are quite heavy too.
Edit;
My mistweaver now has timed almost every dungeon on at least +10, with Mists on +11 and City on +7 
For real, City of threads is brutal.
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Mostly just a working screen and the ability to not stand between the adds’ old a new location 
But yes, CoT overall is one of the harder ones. Together with GB and SV I think.
Very predictable damage though, easy to prepare for.
The mini-boss before the third one is worse than the entire boss itself, imo.
Predictable does not mean it is easy. It is a whole lot of damage it is doing. Healers do not press the 1 healing button and all the healthbars are full instant.
Totally admitting i poison totem or revival into defensived it. The wall of the dungeon for now is the last boss. it doesnt help you get 2 mini bosses before the last boss so usually you pull the last boss with literally no healing cooldown available for the next minute.
Take Stonevault f.ex. skarmorak is mostly Dps mechanics, thats why it fails so much 
Grim Batol also have 2 bosses that heavily relies on Dps doing shiet right
Well, that something does damage doesn’t instantly make it difficult either. Predictable means that you can take your sweet time to think about what to use for the next round, as group. And for this whole process you have like 20 seconds?
That’s a bit different from a randomly cast AoE that does the same damage. That would be brutal.
So yes, I’d say that predictable damage makes something easier. Not easy, but def easier. It’s the same sequence of events, always.
And I know it takes more than 1 button. 3 for Disc, 2 for Shamans. Joke aside (although), it’s not only a healing thing.
As long as people don’t slack while carrying the explosives, that boss shouldn’t be too troublesome. If you take your sweet time with the explosives, yeah, you’re dead rapidly.
Of course. M+ is scripted. That does not mean we do not run out of healing cooldowns because of the amount of heavy AOE. And on the last boss of CoT it basically requires healing cooldowns for the full fight, and 2 AOE’s are even ‘overlapping’. It requires others to press a defensive or a potion before the slam hits. There’s not much the healer can do. And yeah, that is already on an +8 needed.