heck going by their pulled exploring book they are not intrested in progressing the world at all its all stuck in a bubble of status quo
Absolutely agree.
The next book could have been summed up in 1 sentence.
“Nothing has changed, since Cataclysm.”
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I think you didn’t see the
heading before reading? They didn’t do any of it and never elaborated on the rest, you are hearing my thoughts on how I think they would have proceeded to fit the vision of Alliance EK, horde Kalimdor.
You have an official quote for this? I think the horde fans complained bitterly about what happened, and their faction being portrayed as bad - conquering Kalimdor so decisevely was not taken well (I mean what do yo expect if you are burning innocents)
Werre you around at that time? nearly all the blue posts were response to horde fans and the idnetity of the horde, the alliance fans issue of broken night elves didn’t receive a single response.
I think they scrapped the plan as both fans were unahppy, not just night elf fans, it was a large disastisfaction with the whole thing. And the developments of 8.1 onwards were thein game remedies.
Also I notice a significant difference between how you and I communicate. You state:
Even when you don’t know, and you will be called out on it.
When I don’t know a thing, but think it is so, I use terms like:
and
I know your enthusiasm, we are alike that way, but we aren’t blizzard, and neither of us know why plans were cancelled. It is disingenuous to to make a false claim as fact, even if only to press home a point or create an impression. It is misleading and manipulative.
And you assumed wrong. You’d know that if you listened to what Blizzard said at the time.
Oh come on…as soon as we saw the picture of Sylvanas standing in front of the tree as it burned, night elf fans were up in arms about it. I still remember reading about 8-10 topics on it, between EU forums, US forums and MMO champion.
To save face, they had to change the story…and they did. Night Elves are back on Kalimdor…where their fanbase wanted them.
However it was not the change that we were against, but just how they went about it.
From a night elf perspective, to yet lose again, and so badly , yet again, was just thestraw that broke the camel’s back.
If they had been very quick to hint at or tease they would come back more powerfully and be in a better place with the hope of reclamation, it would have been taken a lot better in my opinion, giving something good to look forward too to counter the destruction
Also if they had shown or spilled that there was more behind Sylvanas’ “burn them” that wasn’t just being evil and a hint that other forces were manipulating… then it would have softened the blow to the horde fans significantly and make them feel their faction was not the evil one quite as badly as they did.
Also perhaps if the player character showed some remorse immediately or distancing, maybe some horde races like newly joined Nightborne and Highmountain appalled and going to leave the horde (with Baine and Saurfang meeting up with them straight way pleading that they must stay to save the soul of the horde and atone or something like that, I think it would have been received much better.
As to why they didn’t think of this… I don’t know… things are easier in hindsight? Arrogance of the team ? When you are arrogant you aren’t as careful or deliberate.
Which is what?
Not denying that, off course we were, but so were the horde fans, and their responses were larger, and what the devs chose to respond to instead in the statements they made at the time. It was all about the horde identity.
This too was noted by disgruntled alliance fans and talked about in several topics.
ultimately, it is not their plan of alliance in the east, horde in the west that was bad - so not sure why they scrapped it instead of fix hat weare upset. Having no change is lame.
If you hadn’t noticed, for me the real issue was not necessarily losing Teldrassil or Kalimdor, it was actually been beaten again, having everything destroyed, losing stuff and getting nothing - this is what the real anger was.
Night elf fans biggest issues is with how weak and crappy the race has been shown - people use the events as examples, blizzard sadly didn’t have anyone perceptive enough to see this was the real issue and assumed it was because the players didn’t want change.
Or maybe they didn’t see because they didn’t care. They got the horde one right.!! It was horde identity. But then as they responded more there, I guess they read those posts more seriously.
Believe me, it certainly was not.
Night Elf fans were heard, very loud and clear.
You got the victory and you got North West Kalimdor.
Horde fans were certainly not happy about MoP 2.0, but the night elf voices were far louder. Why do you think 8.1 and the victory cinematic came when they did? That leak basically said that Night Elves were going back to Kalimdor.
Horde Kalimdor was off the table, the moment 8.1 was brought forward.
With that, so was Alliance Eastern Kingdoms.
Thinking that Blood Elves were also going to be displaced as well. Like I say, it was already confirmed that neither they, nor the Draenei, were going to be moved at that point.
We had the leaked Silvermoon Warfront, which would have been a Horde victory as Darkshore and Arathi were Alliance victories. Due to how horrible warfronts were implemented, Silvermoon (and the Barrens) were scrapped - hence why the Horde seemingly got no victories as far as the Warfronts were concerned.
It never was going to be received well.
This was just Alex’s pipe-dream of a new “red vs blue” story, where Steve has now come in to cause even more collateral damage.
Christie’s push for Anduin and Jaina to take over Alliance story, is just the icing on the cake.
And Night Elves aren’t immune to losing wars. Humans, Draenei, Trolls, Orcs, High/Blood Elves - they’ve all lost wars before now.
Do we all know that, problem with night elves is that they’ve been losing constantly. They can’t win by themselves either, must be rescued by humans or someone lese every time, they actually haven’t had shining moments - at least not till 8.1 - 15 years after wow’s release… 15 ! and that was Tyrande, not the faction. Fine technically speaking they did in Legion via the demon hunters, Moonguard, Farondis and Dreamwardens… but as those aren’t part of the alliance faction…
What they would need to show is their Highborne doing some spectacular things, the Moonguard re-joining up with the Darnassians and turning the fighting mage wing into super badasses, then showing them owning.
Showing the Moon priestesses doing some serious pwning with their star and moon celestial magics.
Show the balance druids and feral druids also pwning seriously
finally showing the sentinels and wardens having great moments (although technically we saw this in Darkshore cata zone.
they looked more threatening in War of the Thorns, but again were beating.
They looked useless in the Suramar campaign, i mean, seriously - just a bunch of sentinels.
there is a track record of showing the night elves really poorly in game, in stark contrast tot heir racial profile.
I know you mean in game, but they did pretty well in the War of the Shifting Sands as I recall… There was no Alliance to help them then… 
The War of Thorns actually had them looking pretty damned nails. No, seriously, hear me out here. For a start, we all know Teldrassil burned, and a heck tonne of people died. Everyone knows that.
But consider this. almost the entirety of the Kaldorei main armies were headed to Silithus, so what you have left in Night Elf lands was the reservists, trainee’s civilians and a few soldier units. It was by no means the entire Kaldorei people. They were up against the -ENTIRE- Kalimdor Horde (For some reason Sylvy didn’t invite the Nightborne or Blood Elves, or even bring her Forsaken, possibly because that would alert the Alliance further).
Even so, that is -One- Race, fighting Solo about half or more of an entire -Faction.- It was only ever going to end one way, but the manner in which it ended is what matters. That tiny Kaldorei force didn’t get Roflstomped, in fact at one point the Wisp Wall utterly halted the Horde advance. It’s one of those Heroic losses “Remember the Alamo” or the Battle of Thermopylae and the ‘300’, or Dunkirk (Heck, Brit’s still talk about the ‘Dunkirk Spirit’ to this day).
What the Kaldorei actually pulled off in the War of Thorns was one of those moments. They should have been absolutely steamrollered, yet they weren’t.
It was like those others I listed, it was heroic, but a defeat.
Neither can most races, to be honest.
The Forsaken were fighting the Scarlets, Alliance and the Scourge and they were only just keeping their holdings and were fighting on their own. They weren’t losing, but they weren’t winning either.
Night Elves and Forsaken are the same, as both were fighting enemies on all sides - they weren’t losing, but they weren’t winning either.
Again, Night Elves have only lost in the War of Thorns. They have now gained back the land that was lost, barring the Tree.
Totally agreed, there, however - how you show it makes such a difference too. And you gotta show enough instances where they either shine amongst others, and aree capable of doing great feats themselves.
This is supposed to be a “titanic” race the WC3 manual introduced them as. Then the lore sets up or an astonishing scope, deep, rich, and versatile.
Elves for a change actually felt a race as big and diverse as humans when the night elves with their dark elf and forest elf aspects, Moongoddess, female amazonian warriors, demon hunters etc intorduced. It felt multi facted and rich.
They beat back the Legion and were the hstars against that encounter… but players do not witness this in the present group, they also do not witness their great magical capbability and mastery, their great cities, their priesthood’s power and star magic (well a little of that is seen), we don’t see their Wardens eitehr, their demon hunters so scarce, don’t even see their hunters.
And when we see their sentinels, they are almost always under siege, on the brink of defeat, desperate, - not powerful at all, not fierece either.
I love teh serene side, the mature, wise, peaceful, graceful and beautiful side. This is part of them and definitely I want to se emore of that, but they were allso introduced with a fierce, hardnosed and formdiable side - whic hasn’t really come out well at all in game with all those defeats and “we are so weak” portrayal.
It’s like losing immortaltiy totally nerfed them. And it’s been 15 years of looking shabby and weak. Well… Legion is gone, arcane magic is back, night elves are desperate. The night warrior is unlocked, there is the emerald dream and Well of eternity for nature and arcane users to employ.
Time to write some incredible things for them and for a change show them as really special and show off these sides of them that have been in drips and drabs, part of their race and story, but not seriously shown.
Why?
They’re not special.
The lore also has them as “almost extinct” and that was way back in Classic.
They don’t own the Demon Hunters
Illidari own the Demon Hunters and that is between Blood Elves and Night Elves.
But why…why should night elves go super-satan and other races are made to look incompetent? Why can’t we see the best Orc Shamans looking awesome and defeating the night elves in Azshara, once and for all?
Night Elves die as equally as any other race.
Most notably, the Forsaken - since Blizzard have now linked these two races as the antitheses of each other.
So they should constantly be beaten and down and this is normal, expected and should be the case because “they’re not special?”
Every race is special. I wonder if you would disagree if it was blood elves that were constantly the hipping boys and I was suggesting blood elves went on a badass winning streak to make up for all that loss
The double standard is strong in this one.
And nearly every other race on Azeroth.
As a player race, you should have something special about you, and do special things. Some will naturally play larger roles than other or have more tot hem than others - because of the parts they play.
But whether you have a lot of attention or not, I think every race should have a least one and better several things to be really proud off and attractive tot hem.
Also it’s just demoralising and depressing from a game point of view to be constantly losing or on the brink of it, or been shown weak and needed in to be bailed out all the time.
I mean surely you see that. I’m convinced your reaction would be different if it was blood elves we were talking about.
Nor do they own mages priests, rangers or druids.
For crying out loud, just accept that night elves can be demon hunters. And like any mage night elf, priest night elf, druid night elf, hunter night elf, you can expect to see demon hunter night elves play a role in their race even if their organisation, of night elf origin isn’t allied to the most popular night elf faction.
Illidan and his demon hunter class from a huge chunk of night elf lore too… despite their very small numbers. They’re not excluded or forgotten because they aren’t numerous. Why you should ever think a race or group doesn’t count because their numbers are small despite the significant impact of them on the stories woven around them is beyond me.
Sometimes I wonder if you truly pay attention, or do you only switch on when it comes to blood elves and just haphazardly negatively react to everything outside that scope without thinking.
Are you asking me , a fan why they should write incredible roles for a r ace I like seriously? Do the maths
Especially aware of the back drop of how weak they’ve been portrayed… Seriously Leia?
Did I say they should be beaten down? No, but they shouldn’t be god-like amazonians either.
They win some, they lose some. That’s storytelling.
My reaction would be just the same if it was Blood Elves.
Why are we turning them into some god-like creatures when it’s not in their lore? Why turn them into these advanced fel users, when they were hardly Warlocks in the first place?
It’s about what we’ve got here and now. Night Elves, Draenei and Gilneans content with a large Horde presence. 1 of them will not win against the whole of the Kalimdor Horde.
They are excluded, because just like their Death Knights - they are not part of the core society, led by Tyrande and Malfurion.
Demon Hunters and Death Knights don’t show up for Blood Elf lore either.
The Demon Hunters are their own thing, doing their own business. Same with the Death Knights. They just aren’t large in the elven societies of the factions.
And are you questioning why we can’t see amazing stuff where we see night elves also get defeated? Especially in a zone, like Azshara - where they should be defeated, by now?
Law of averages, if they’ve done all the losing up till 8.1, let it now be winning till the same amount of time has passed. So in total it would indeed be lose some, win some, rather than lose all, win none, or lose most, win a few.
You’ve just read essays about how and why they are a core part of the race. And though you said society, this can also play into the society.
There are many core parts of races that aren’t shown yet, this si why we want them to be shown, I’m just discussing the n ight elf ones.
It’s not a crime to want these or expect this, and you don’t need to “spare me from being disappointed by this rhetoric”, support me if you truly care for me.
And even if it wasn’t core: IF
- Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t nor mean it can’t be explored
- doesn’t mean it can’t be present, loko good or be amazing the few times it shows up
You reaction tells me that you just don’t want your rivals to look good in the things you like.
Are you developing wow and making the decisions ? Why should I be answering to you or questioning you on why i can’t see amazing stuff for night elves when you neither write nor determine these things, you don’t even know the race well enough.
Please, as I mentioned to you before, fans are free to write what they desire, you don’t need to question their desire or try to convince them they have no right to desire something or declare to them their desires or wishes can’t happen
That’s some serious messed up sadisitic manipulation and mind control attempts here.
But they haven’t done all the losing.
They managed to set up camps all around Azshara and at the rear gate of Orgrimmar.
But why though? Why bring in parts now, when they never were big before?
Blizzard can’t even write the core parts well. Why don’t we get them bits sorted first, before we start trying to add on a layer of crap, to a layer of what is unfinished.
You won’t get the results you want.
And like I say, Death Knights, Demon Hunters and Monks - they are not big within any elven society.
The Demon Hunters are a joint union between some Blood Elves and some Night Elves, along with Naga, demons and Broken Draenei. All under the Illidari.
Until we see demon hunter representation in a revamped Quel’Thalas and Hyjal respectively (likely as Illidari Ambassadors), I honestly can’t see any blood elf or night elf demon hunters being part of either societies. Especially not whilst Tyrande and Lor’themar lead.
And don’t tell me that Blood Elves would be more welcoming towards Demon Hunters, when we know that this isn’t truly the case.
Tirathorn Saltheril tells us that “his people shun him as a freak.” He’s a blood elf as well.
I want to develop what we’ve already got. Not what isn’t a big part of “said” race yet.
Demon Hunters will get lore, when Illidan returns. Just…be patient.
I do think that your under the impression that adding more, to what is under developed, will solve the issues. It won’t.
Let’s see more of Malfurion’s Druids - what does it truly mean to be a Druid of the Talon or Druid of the Claw. We don’t know the specialties that each Druid sector provides. No other Druid race has this and night elves are the only elf race that can be Druid. Why would a Night Elf Druid aim to be of the Talon, rather than of the Raven or Claw? What does it mean to be a Druid of the Talon? Let’s see answers to these questions through the Night Elf Druids.
Maiev’s Wardens - their is one who I’m very interested in, Drelanim Whisperwind. Is she a relation to Tyrande? She has her own voice actress.
What is their work now that they have rejoined the society under Tyrande and Malfurion’s law. If they move to Hyjal, then I’d be very interested to see where they go as it was the Wardens who had Fandral under lockdown.
Tyrande’s Priestesses - what about a different style of Temple? Maybe one covering the Well of Eternity and this is where the Priestesses get their powers. The mages don’t have anything to do with the Well. What about the kinder sectors of the Priestesses? Belysra Starbreeze - working to help the Worgen and deal with Sylvanas’ assault on Gilneas. What’s she doing now? She did survive Teldrassil, but it still alive after her encounter with the Shatterspear Trolls.
Your right, their is more to night elves, but the areas I’ve listed are seemingly the areas that Blizzard choose to focus on, so let’s work with what they’ve got.
Indeed, this is probably more exciting than anything the Mages bring…probably more exciting than Blood Elves, since Blizzard seem hesitant to move them away from anything that isn’t - Mage, Paladin or Hunter.
There are 4 major races in warcraft…
Humans, Orcs, Undead and Night elves - of these 4, the first 3 have had extensive lore and focus throughout, the last one, the night elves, have been dumped in the gutter, their greateneess and ignificance greatly diminished.
Not all night elf stuff needed to be focused on the alliance. Yes undead got Wrath, Night elves got Legion. Undead got DKs, Night elves got DHs, but undead have played a much larger role over all when you add in shadowlands and Sylvanas focus.
AS a night elf fan, ofc I want a lot more for night elves.
And tehway I see it, night elves are hugely popular - whether it’s druids you like or mages and the pre-sundering civilziation of the dark elf side or if it’s female amazonian warriors and priests.
I do now that drudis have got a lot of exposure, but the Elune side of things has got very little, and not enough of the arcane side either - with Suramar /Azsuna and Feralas/DIre MAul the only things to show for it.
I know the broken shore was altered cutting the priest’s role down significantly, and the night elves played no role alongside the draenei in 7.3 - although Illidan and some demon hunters at least were there, the kaldorei priests and druids and mages shoudl ahve been there too. Cut.
Still at least they showed up in 8.1 and 8.2 but again, 8.2 had human substitutions, Jaian, Genn - where it should have been the likes of Farondis/Modrdant Evenshade and either Malfurion/Tyrande or even Jarod picking the bones with Azshara.
But at least Azshara is not done yet, night elves are finally getting something, let us hope it continues…
They aren’t anymore though. The Fel Stuff went well out of favour, the Fel Crystals aren’t even in Silvermoon anymore Lorewise, as confirmed in game. They -Were- the Best Elven Warlocks at the time That anyone knew of Because obviously the Kaldorei didn’t go in for that, the Void Elves didn’t exist yet, and no one knew the Shal’dorei were even still alive!
It’s like the American World Series at Baseball. How can they call it the World Series, when only Americans play it? (coughs even though it was invented in Britain)
The Blood Elves were just the best Elven Warlocks knocking around -at that time-. Now they’re not even trying to be that, but have gone to the Blood Knight, Farstrider, Magister power blocs. Warlocks don’t get a look in.
(Interestingly there was in WotLK a High Elf Warlock, Summoner Nolric, who was the Warlock trainer in Dalaran, so ehh, make of that what you will)
That -is- pretty much what I said. No one single race could face off against most of a Faction and expect to win. Especially when they don’t have their major armies at their disposal. The fact the Night Elves managed to Stymie the Horde advance as long as they did was frankly remarkable, but then, the Horde learned an important lesson. Never fight Guerilla warfare against people who know the territory better than you do…
This is broadly true. If you remove the whole concept of Demon Hunters being the ‘outsider’s’ in their societies then you remove the essential point of them. “I have sacrificed everything, what have you given?”
“Have you though?.. I mean you can see just fine, even after having put your eyes out, you can actually see things other people can’t, So that’s a plus. You have a Demon Soul in you, is that right? So you’re unkillable as Daddy Illidan says, so can’t truly die? Well that’s a plus, You get wings now and then, that’s cool, You get an innate crash course in Ninjamatics and can shoot freakin’ lasers from your non-existent eyes! I mean what actually -are- the downsides?” “We…must…fight…to keep control…” “Let me guess, me guess, are they ‘crawling in my skin?’” “We are Outcasts, you would not understand” “Yes, I’ve just detailed -WHY- you are outcasts, and you keep banging on about being freaks and tormented souls and wonder why no one invites you to parties! Eeesh”.
Alright, I’m taking the mickey, but if you take away that societal shunning of illidari, both NE and BE then -what- are you left with? OP Ninja’s. Worse, OP -smug- Ninjas.
Have you read ‘Illidan’ by William King? He did something I thought was impossible. He actually made me go “OK, DH’s do have some depth to them” but he did that by playing up on the Outcast thing. The protagonist, Vandel, a Night Elf who absorbs I think it is a felstalker demon, is hiding in some bushes watching Blood Elf Sunfury troops (So not actual Blood Elf DH’s) having a party. One of the most poignant scenes is that he -knows- he could just stalk over, demand a bottle of wine, and drink it, because who is going to refuse him. But he doesn’t, whilst the Sunfury are cavorting and dancing, he sneaks round the tables picking up half drank glasses of wine and finishing them, all the time aware of the revulsion that would be shown if he was seen doing so.
It made Vandel, and the illidar -more- understandable. They know they’re monsters, and they -know- they have no place in normal society.
Take that away from them, and the class fantasy is ruined.
Says you.
Night Elves weren’t in the game until WCIII. So lets not say they are a major race. Only orcs and humans get that prerogative. Which is stupid, but hey ho…
just let it go and find a better hobby buddeh
The night elves were given stunning art work and architecture - just take a visit to Suramar and the Cathedral of Eternal night -
I think every night elf fan would love to see city and temple of that calibre for their new capital. And I don’t see why anyone would oppose it unless they didn’t want night elves to have cool stuff from their own race - and I do question thier motives.
i have heard all sorts of excuses, all from horde elf fans mainly - you can’t give lore excsues why anything can’t happen in this game, especially on this, where for every excuse there is a counter. it boils down to whether the developers want to do a nice city for night elves or not.
The lore supports it, can be used for or against, but ultimately existing lore has never been a hinderance to anything, you simply write new lore when you want to do something cool.
Bottom line is players want cool stuff. THe alliance needs their night elves and other races to have cool stuff, e desirable and attractive. The fans want it, and hte game will benefit from people being attracted to the alliance. Whether it’s by cool new allied races like the Naz’dorei in the other thread, or cool star cusotomisations made available like those on Tyranda e and a cool new city and temple capturing the beauty of Suramar , ZI’Azshari and the Catehdral of Eternal night.
They want night elves looking good not crappy - and stupid reasons like @night elves can’t have everything@, @ night elves can’t win everything@ (as if that’s even remotely been asked) shouldn’t get in the way.
Leia makes asking for night elf stuff to be some sort of @asking for everything@ - You would think I w as asking for the Kaldorei empire to resurrect and night elves rule the world agai and dominate the races… pfft.
I should quit arguing against trashy silly comments from peopel who I am beginning to be convinced are just disruptive argumentative and are dominated by self interest for their fantasy race and fantasy rivals /rolleyes
Too true Skinhat, total waste of my time and effort.
Remember before Shadowlands released and the top guilds were ready and waiting to roll Dwarf, because the RACIAL gave them a superior advantage over the Horde…? Yeah, I remember that as well.
Fancy stuff won’t boost the faction up in terms of people swapping to the other side. You need racials. The race is also irrelevant as most people swapping were ready to roll Dwarf.
People are attracted to racials…not looks.
You wanting the Alliance to be everything -night elf- will not boost the faction’s profile. Nothing will change.
Dwarves are probably the race that will make the Alliance popular through their racials. Hell, it’s why everybody rolled Dwarf Priest back in Classic.