Okay one last though before I go to bed. Ive tried pugging on my alts in nyalotha and if you dont pug on wednesday it’s basically impossible to find a good group. They split community into pvpers, m+ grinders, raiders, casual players, pet “DUELISTS” 
and I think they realized with current sub numbers they just cant afford that so they are basically forcing community to do heroic if they want those sweet +3 ilvls.
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game dying cuz of content & systems so let’s add more systems 5head move from blizzard
i think it will deter even more people from trying different kinds of content, especially with covenants locking u to perform well in only one kind of content.
I honestly think that a set path of gearing is the best thing they couldve done but then I really enjoy raiding. its like good old days. you hit max level and then you grind some reps to buy gear, maybe craft few pieces and you move to m0, normal raid, m+, heroic raid and in the end you clear mythic for that sweet gear for big boys and girls
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You’re not even close to elite. Your only raid achievement is Ahead of the Curve: N’Zoth and you don’t even don’t even have Keystone Master.
How can you even have an opinion on m+ when you have never even played it? A +15 dungeon is both harder and more time consuming than a heroic raid boss, and should give better loot than an HC boss.
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Raiding is much harder than 5-man dungeons. I cleared heroic raid so I should have better gear than the dungeon spammers. The success of Classic proves that players would rather raid than spam simple dungeons. Don’t worry, you will still get your welfare gear in the weekly chest.
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classic died tho lol?
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Come back to me when you are able to do something above a +12. Heroic raiding is a cakewalk.
A pack of mobs in a m+ has more mechanics than a whole raid in classic. The only feature classic has is grinding.
Classic raids are cleared in a few hours after release with a raid group that’s not even max level. It’s so easy, people are literally clearing it naked now. “Simple dungeons” 
I am not pleased.
I have never been a fan of raiding really and have always focused on PvP. BFA kinda ruined that for me 
I then decided that I wanted to focus on M+ - Now SL is taking that away 
The way I see it (is very unpopular, and Im ready for flaming) it is yet another catering of the Raiders alone.
Raiders complained that they couldn’t kick PvP’ers rear when they could beat big bosses - The changes to cater for them broke PvP.
Now Raiders complained about M+ and yet again got it their way.
And inb4 the argument that “but now you are not forced to do dungeons” - No maybe not, but everybody is forced into HC/Mythic raiding.
I mean - I get that something needs to be done about boosters, gear foddering etc, but there could have been other ways. Also I feel that it is a shame that Blizzard is breaking several aspects of the game to cater for only one aspect. It’a a BIG game, it could have so much more potential if they would fix things to balance, instead of breaking things that people love only to favour one aspect - if you get what I mean.
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Said the elite player who have only done hc raid.
M+ is harder then hc raid. Then not talking about the low keys you have done.
Speaking of casuals - M+ difficulty unlike raid scales indefinitely so should the drop from it by your own logic. Since at some point timed M+ key became harder then downing a raid Mythic boss and difficulty should be equal to reward.
Currently in BFA an M+15 is harder than mythic wrathion, skitra, maut and shad’har.
Depending on affixes and dungeon, it can be harder than drest, vexiona and hivemind.
I haven’t attempted N’zoth mythic so I can’t judge, but from my experience in Nya’lotha
Raden + Ilgynoth is ~m+20 level
Carapace is M+22 level
N’zoth probably is +24-25 level.
It makes absolutely no sense, at ALL to have m+15 drop gear WORSE than heroic.
Separate M+ gear from mythic, let m+ gear be better in m+ and be done with it.
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Assuming so much?
If i could gear up ‘‘reasonable’’ competative with ‘‘only pvp gearing’’ i wouldnt touch m+ even once.
This wording and attitude is why i hate raiders. The reason why we pvp’ers hate raiding is timing and convenience. Gearing and raiding should be completely seperate. m+ was a good addition to game while pvp gearing was nearly non existant; whether you either agree or not.
You dont sound like that though.
This is another reason why i hate raids. People are using raids to sell boost for their gold vaults. While elitism and ‘‘extremely selective’’ raiding goes rampant and only guild raids progress.
How nice of devs; punishing small community players to soothe raiders egos. *sarcasm off *
If people wanted the ‘‘classic’’ experience; we wouldnt have personal loot in retail wow.Classic is archaic and dusty. The reason people miss classic is the pvp and talent systems ,not loot table.Im pretty sure no one misses ‘‘ninja loots’’ or ‘‘master loots’’
Retail is all about progress.Looting with only raiding should be a thing of the past. And gearing should be more diversified.Also we should get mythic equivalent proper pvp gearing in shadowlands.
m+ gearing isnt same as raids. Raid loot is superior to m+ anyways. Besides; we didnt have raid type sets so the only real difference is item quality and trinket difference.I really wished that m+15 would equal to mythic raiding gear.
You can be proud in your epic gear as well lol. We dont have versatility leech speed or mastery in classic. It is easier to ‘‘optimize’’ the character you played. Do you want a simpler gameplay? We didnt have multiple specs to play at once too in classic. What is your point?
This.
Yes. This will increase m+ selling alot. Which i worry about.
getting accepted to a pug raid is like 5 times harder than m+. Especially if you dont have any achievement.
Im glad someone think similar to me.
Another thing you are wrong about. Classic community is completely differen than retail. Beside ‘‘welfare’’ means it is distributed whether you work or not. According to your logic people should get ‘‘welfare’’ gear whether they do pve or not.Which is completely opposite of reality.
Sometimes i think blizzard would create another game for raiders or pvpers so we wouldnt have to worry about them both.I really hate to be forced do ‘‘content’’. A lot of pvp’ers think same as me. Best way to do is getting conquest vendors back with good pvp gears with appropiate pvp focused set bonuses.Bringing resillience back would be also very good solution.
You are right. I once entered nyalotha normal in a pug with a friend. I completed 3 bosses wihout a single wipe while i had no idea what im doing lol. You cannot do that in m+. You have to know every tactics.
well, mythic raids dont have timers for thrash clears, so… m+>mythic raiding in terms of difficulty. Besides mythic plus have insane difficulty sliders up to double digit numbers.
Behold, the pandaren who spoke the truth. 
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I believe there should be a way of getting above heroic level gear, maybe even mythic level gear from M+. However, much more time gated than raid, like in the form of a currency with a weekly cap that could be exchanged for gear. Think something like the azerite vendor where getting one piece of gear could take over 3 weeks. It should also be a requirement to have regularly completed high level keys to prevent getting free mythic gear from 15s.
My reason is that there is little to no reward for pushing M+ beyond the end of dungeon ilvl cap, which, if pushed far enough, outscales mythic raid difficulty by a mile. It would not be worth it for mythic raiders to push just for the gear due the extra time commitment, but non-raiders who focus on high M+ would have a chance to eventually somewhat catch up to mythic raiders and not be forever at a massive gear disadvantage.
With that said, I think the BFA M+ gearing was over the top. Spamming 15s is not difficult enough to reward 3+ pieces of HC+5 item level gear. Although there was still some incredibly strong raid exclusive gear, like the Ra-den fist weapons, Skitra bow, N’zoth tank trinket etc.
Yeah I’m sure Blizz looked up the comments of a very active player such as yourself.
M+ key pushers will be decked in max ilvl gear by week 5/6 anyway. Bad change, which affects low keys, the kind of which you run, more than higher ones.
but you havent cleared mythic and zion barely cleared heroic once or twice rofl why you so against a chest granting ONE piece of loot at max level (with wrong stats usually)?? per week after hours of searching for a group and wiping/kicking/etc pug world is toxic and hell, and anyone who completes +15 in pugs these days deserves the 475 loot and even 485 loot.
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I can open group finder 24 hours a day 7 day a week and see countless groups for raids, I can even choose which boss what I want to do! Tell me what is so inconvenient about this process. You simply don’t want to do it because it takes too much skill and effort, much easier to just spam another Freehold.
See, posters tend to lose all credence when they insult the other part of the playerbase. That’s not having an opinion, that’s just being a jerk.
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They should really consider set bonuses :
One for raiding
One for M+
One for pvp
So people can progress thru favorite branch of the game.
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I was the one being harassed and abused in this thread for sharing my opinion, so it appears the pot is calling the kettle black.
You were the one who started it by using “casuals” as a derogatory term and saying we get “welfare gear” so no, you have no high ground.
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