The problem with gear and how unfriendly current system is to new players

First time ever posting forums, i’ve played since mid legion, without ever going beyond random bgs or even skimishes, only in shadowlands i started trying to get into it, because if there is one thing that has always kept me away from trying to do arenas and competitive pvp in general, that thing is the gear difference and the matchmaking that does nothing to avoid it.

Most of the games i played from 0 to 1.6k in 2s were for at least the 90% of the time against players with 10k/15k+ hp more than me, that sometime could even delete me from existence with my defensives up. I don’t mean that there shouldn’t be an advantage that comes from more time investment that is gearing your char, it’s an mmo, it’s fkin obvious you get rewarded the more time you spend; i just don’t understand why it has to impact some arena matches so much that fks normal concepts like "if enemy pops burst cds you pop defensive cds/cc cds to try to survive ". Until i met a god sent holy priest, with 220 ilvl, that for some reason accepted to play with a 0 exp 200 ilvl warr, that carried me from 1k to 1.6k, i was absolutely convinced that the reason why my healers or me kept dying was only me, that i was supposed to do something more than just intervene enemy burst cds or rally, or cc, or pray jesus. But with this priest that had as much gear as the booster in the enemy team, i finally understood that healers and me are not wet paper and can also do damage.

With this said, i mean that as a new player the gear disparity basically doesn’t allow to improve because you don’t know why you’re dying so fast even if you pop defensives and why you’re doing no damage with bursts; you don’t identify the problem, you don’t improve.
The game obligates you to be almost bis in slot to start learning how to play, because if you’re not the numbers are so low/high you don’t understand the value of your/enemies actions.
As i said already, i don’t think there souldn’t be such disparity, it just shouldn’t last for so long that you need 2k cr gear to actually start playing the game. I don’t know how i would have reached 1.6k without basically being carried, because if the alternative is to farm gold to pay a booster than the system it’s fkin broken, or, as it is intended (i guess), trying to rank up with people of the same ilvl, by going trough hundreds of unfair matches that just makes the majority of new players want to quit. I want to improve myself, my skills, but the system just makes so hard that it makes it not worth.

So i wonder: is this much gear disparity necessary? Shouldn’t a match victory be based for at least the vast majority on pure skill instead of who has the biggest dic- vers?

To reduce the gap i thought this: 226 gear can be obtained at like 1.4k and base honor gear level increased to like 180. As a reward to reach higher ranks there could be cosmetic only rewards like achievs, the title, the elite set transmog. To avoid to invalidate pve progression by making pvp mandatory, the gear will scale down in pve content like in Wod, 226 ilvl to 213, 180 ilvl to 168, this way content like world quests and weekly choregast won’t be a problem, but a pvp player won’t be able to do high keys or raids with pvp gear, so it won’t invalidate pve progression; viceversa, for pve players won’t be optimal for pvp content with mythic raid/m+ gear. This distinction should exist just to not exploit gear progression for pve.

I think that this would solve a great part of the general struggle that is pvp, by shifting (for the most) the problem from a gear based one to a skill based one, by allowing more players to get easier into pvp and also gives more meaning to someone rank. I always wanted to try new classes but just thinking of going trough the clown show that is random bgs and epic bgs as a low geared dude, to get 200ilvl conq gear and then still being incredibly overgeared by 2.1k player that boost they’re friend/client just always turned me down.

Even if you don’t share my solution it doesn’t matter, i hope you at least understand the problem that the vast majority of new players have to deal with. If it’s not a real problem i beg you convince me, it would really help me a lot, thank you.

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If they re-introduced the pvp stats, and gave us the old gearing system (honor/conquest gear, with no upgrades), alot of the current problems would go away tbh.
People will still buy boosts ofc, but there will be alot fewer of them. Atleast thats what i suspect anyway.

As far as i know, there arent many classes/speccs who have versatility as their bis stat anyway for pve.

If i remember correctly, blizzard said that they dont wanna divide the game into 2 parts (pve and pvp). But if nobody needs the pvp gear for pve, then why not just bring back resilience/pvp power?
I dont have any links to this, so just consider this my personal oppinion.

ye i remember they said they don’t want to divide the comunity, but as you said it seems it won’t affect it anyway. With this post i basically said i want the gear to be marginal in pvp and matches being more skill based, so less grindy for gear, more grindy for cr.

I honestly have no idea why I would want to grind cr if I literally don’t get anything for it?
Does the gear not come naturally if you grind for cr anyway?

Who says you shouldnt get anything for it?

No need to reward you gear though, they can give out pets/titles/cosmetics/tabards/illusions. There are quite alot of different things you can get.

It usually does, but when you are facing 226 people on 1400 when you are rocking honor gear, then its obvious that the road to gear is gonna be painful. Even r1’s have problems farming cr, beacause of the gear disparity.

I would much rather have skill matter over gear, any day. I do, however, want gear to matter some though.

i’m saying that the point were everyone have the same gear, so when matches start being more skill based than gear based, should be lower. Basically moving the 2.4k+ matches to 1.4k or something. The reward that i think it’s important are things like titles, mounts and trasmog, since gear anyway you’re going to switch it.

That’s what I mean tho. We do get cosmetics already, what would be the change? More cosmetics? I am pretty sure, people who play PvP mainly 100% do not do it for pets :grin:
I am playing MMORPG for ages and I need the feeling that I am progressing on my char. I don’t mind the ilvl gap being reduced and the brackets (1,4 1,6 1,8 2,1 2,4) sorted differently. But having only useless incentive while trying to climb is kinda meh, considering it’s still a MMORPG. If I wanted to play only for some scoreboard grind, I’d play mobas, fps, chess etc.

As already mentioned, I been there with several chars already. Yes, it can be annoying indeed but the most annoying part is actually capping conquest, not getting the rating for the gear upgrade.

Where does this come from? Everytime I ask someone, they link me the Venruki vid where is jumping into arena with ilvl 158 or something not even having a trinket… are you referring to the same?

I agree.

Why do you need alot of rewards for doing pvp? Why do you need gear, in order to play pvp?

No, thats true. I might be in a different enviroment that you are, but almost everyone im playing with play pvp beacause the enjoy it. I dont think i’ve met many people who only pvp beacause they get certain rewards for it.
Myself included, i wouldnt mind some random cosmetics. But i also wouldnt be bothered if they completely removed all cosmetics/tabards from pvp rewards.

Sure, but you can still get that even if they change the gearing system. To that of wod/mop system.

Or even LK system, where you can get a conquest piece at certain rating. That was ONE item though, and it wasnt a huge upgrade. Wasnt even an ilvl upgrade, compared to today where you get 7 ilvls every 200 rating.

Sounds to me that you dont really play pvp beacause its fun. And if thats so, thats fine. I just hope that blizzard dont have you and your likeminded in mind when constructing pvp.

For me its both, facing 226 players on 1.4 while trying to get gear. And needing several hundred games, just to get 200 conquest gear (and ofc another 10’s of thousands of honor ontop of that)

Nah, i tried finding it on twitch, but its ages ago. But it was some rogue who had problems reaching rating beacause of gear.
His main rogue was on 3k or something.

Edited some typos.

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I don’t need a lot of rewards. I just need a feeling that I am progressing on my char, which is one of the reasons why I play an MMORPG instead of something else.

I know what you are trying to say but if you were right, we would have no rating :slight_smile: So no, people do not just play it because they enjoy it (of course I enjoy it as well, otherwise I’d not play it). It’s human nature tho, we need goals and incentives.

Yes but we already have it. It’s like getting socks for christmas and in order to not make it look lame you get “cool socks”… like it’s gonna fix the fact it’s still socks :slight_smile:

I am pretty sure wotlk was kinda like tbc. You had several ratings you needed to achieve in order to get the full PvP set. Ye, I just checked.
Belt 1,3k cr
Boots 1,4k cr
Hands 1,4k cr
Legs 1,55k cr
Chest 1,6k cr
Relic 1,8k cr
Weapon 1,8k cr
Helm 1,9k cr
Shoulders 2k cr

Of course it was an upgrade compared to the non-locked PvP parts.
I wouldn’t mind a system like that, maybe would add a minor weapon upgrade at 2,1k or something.

Of course I play it for fun but WoW PvP is VERY repetitive, the fights are never unique (if you ever played BDO you will know what I mean) or special in anyway. Therefore you kinda need goals and a plain number is just not enough. If you ask most people what they most favorite expansions been, most of them will say tbc and wotlk. Now people are crying WoD just because the rating requirement in tbc and wotlk was still too high for them and they would experience the same issue they do now.
It worked for at least 3 expansions fine, of course there been people still complaining about the gear difference… and Blizzard tried different approaches (wod, legion, bfa) all of them the player base did not enjoy, found boring or it simply didn’t work (bfa).

I mean if that’s a common problem for R1 people (who usually stream a lot and have youtube channels) it should be easy to find something, right? I know only the Venruki vid and obviously it was a huge troll because it’s obvious nobody should expect to win vs someone who is actually tryharding with like 60+ ilvls more, meanwhile you are doing same rotations as you were geared (basically absolutely not adapting to the current situation) and play without trinket lol…

So, you would accept an 1 ilvl upgrade on ONE item, every 200 rating? I mean, technically you do get a reward.

You understand what i mean though, ofc i wanna have rating. But i dont need anything else in order to play the game. And thats also the case for alot of my friends and aquatances (spelling?).

Maybe my edit was abit late, or you missed it. I also dont really care about cosmetics. It does nothing for me, remove it or add a million. It wont really be gamebreaking for me.

Yes, you did. But it wasnt a massive difference between 1400 and 1600 gear. Also, the pvp gear was useless, so no pve’er wanted it for pve purposes.

You also had pve-gear to make up for the lack of pvp gear, wich i really disliked. You had some insane pve items that rocked in pvp, thankfully they did changes to trinket. But this is a different topic/story.

There was, you got a better weapon at 2.2. Was abit of controversy, beacause the weapon was very good. And meeting people with 2.2 weapon on low mmr, was a bit of a problem.

Thats beacause of the current “system” if you will. You dont really have alot of variety in comps nowadays. Mop (i might be biased, beacause i LOVED that expansion), you had a TON of different comps. Ofc, most comps more or less did the same, but you still had alot of different comps.

Thats your oppinion, obviously. For me thats enough, and so it is for alot of those i play with too. I would much rather they focus on having a balanced pvp setting, instead of trying to come up with rewards.

I never said it was common, i said it has happened. It’s no secret though, gear matter way to much atm. Its a dumb system, there are also quite a few r1’s who says that as well.

I checked some vids from pika/whazz, but i couldnt be bothered spending to much time finding it. Wether you believe it or not, dont really matter to me if im honest.

They forced you to play more often, spend more time or buy some boost.

It’s very weird “progress”, don’t you think? Like you saying you “don’t need anything” :stuck_out_tongue:
But ye if my only choice is nothing vs this, I take this of course.

Why tho? You got mmr, why do you need cr on top?

Well definitely more than 1 ilvl every 200 rating on one item only :grin:

I am not sure how exactly this matters for PvP players and arenas?

Ye, I wasn’t sure when they removed it. See, my suggestion was even more casual friendly :slight_smile:

Na, I honestly felt literally every single expansion the same. Every expansion you just need to make a new (more or less) game plan and then you pretty much repeat it over and over again.
The only difference is when people (the enemy team) actually misplay and you shorten your way to the win.

Well it definitely will never be balanced, that’s the nature of MMORPGs. And if it’s somewhat balanced, it’s so boring and dulled that nobody wants to play it. Also, even you want cr because mmr is not enough for some reason. Your incentive standards are just lower but most people do want incentives, that’s literally how the entire society and the whole world functions lul^^

So we are talking about some rare occasions? So rare that you couldn’t even find it?^^
I mean come on… we should not even argue about this “argument” at all then. I highly doubt r1 people are struggling at something I don’t. Unless they are trolling like venruki with his 150 something ilvl and no trinket :slight_smile:

Yeah, that was basicly what i was referring to.

I know this sounds ironic, but i wanna play against better and better people. It gives me nothing by gaining rating on 500 mmr (not rating bashing anyone), but i think its fun to climb cr while getting better at my chars for example. For me thats progress.

I dont really know how the ilvl summarization works, but 1 conquest item per 100 rating, wont really give you a big upgrade. And its still progress, so for me thats okay. (like the old system was)

I read somewhere on the forums that pve’ers dont get enough loot during raids, so they buy boosts in arenas for the gear. No idea how big of a problem it is though.

If you have that every expansion, and every season. Then i dont think there is anythiong to do with that. Not sure how the devs can fix that feeling for you.

No, ofc not. But having theese insane 1-shots is something that nobody wants. Its not healthy for the game.

What? season 15, hello?
“balanced game is boring and dull”, not gonna lie thats an impressive sentence.

mmr changes depending on what people you play with, i know cr does too. But it just feels different. Kinda hard to explain.

Different people want different things, obviously. You want gear for playing arena, and as far as i understand, you also want an advantage over others who spend less time on their char. Regardless of them beeing better than you at the game?

I have no numbers on this, so i dont know? You know there are something in between though, right?
Seems to me that you dont accept a middle ground, its either super common or super rare?

M8, i spent 3 mins searching. Calm your tts:)

The issue is that I am not the only one. Since cata I was literally quitting every first season because it was boring and I was not the only one, most of my friends quit as well. But since there is/was nothing else to play people always get hyped a bit and try it out the first season.
I didn’t even bother trying legion, especially when I heard there are gonna be templates. Was playing BDO, was so much superior to WoW it’s not even fun. Literally the game every PvP players wants to play. Unfortunately it went too much p2w at some point (like most asian games) and devs didn’t bother to work on pvp content anymore.

As I said, bit tweaking is needed but it’s not like everyone gets one shotted every game… it’s just people crying who refuse to press buttons.

Referring to WoD and Legion here, I guess people just forgot all the complaints already. I didn’t even play Legion and I know it. People been quitting and joining BDO trash talking boring WoW :grin:

It’s just your standard for incentives. You know MMR and CR are both just numbers but you also know MMR is just a “guessed” number nobody really cares about meanwhile CR is something nobody can’t deny and it’s the relevant number for achievements and titles.

Yes and no. Gear should give an advantage, obviously (hello mmorpg aspects) but you also should be able to win vs higher geared people if they suck. Even if people don’t want to admit that, that’s also the case right now. Some people are simply lying and say it’s impossible to win with a ~7 ilvl difference regardless of the skill level, some take it to an extreme and want to win naked…
Idk why people go monkey on this one, like nobody ever played an MMORPG ever or something.

Doesn’t have to be super rare or common but when there are so many WoW streamers and youtubers and this should be really a thing, it really should be not hard to find. Unless someone is overdoing the statement :slight_smile:

Well you made it sound like that’s a huge issue everyone is facing, even r1 people. Yet we literally have no backup to this. Not blaming you or anything but let’s be real… the most people who cry about X and Y, could link their gameplay and we all know most of them are just misplays.
It’s like the people claiming double rogue with rotten build are flooding arenas and in order to back it up the same two rogues are linked over and over again lul…

And then we get people who don’t even bother to learn the basics of the pvp, making some suggestions where they don’t even understand the consequences, not even remotely. Which was the latest one? 2 seconds immunity after using the trinket? like… it just blows my mind sometimes…

Thats fine, you have a history of quitting every expansion after first season. This game aint for you, and thats fair. There has been a major difference in different meta’s throughout the first seasons of different expansions. If none of them are to your liking, then i dont really think wow will ever become what you hope. It’s somewhat clear that you arent in the targeted audience.

Yes, but its more or less always the same classes doing the insane 1-shots. With little to no counterplay. Sure, some times the 1shot fails, but that still doesnt mean its healthy for the game.
(in the current videos that is, its always instance of rogues of rets nowadays)

Yes, and i know alot of others who also feel the same. Alot just wanna play pvp, and have fun.

Remember, before dampening, we had a buff called “the crowd chooses you”? (Im gonna assume that you remember it)

Demo warlocks and blood dk’s, was an INSANE comp beacause they never lost hp. You couldnt win against them beacause of TCCY. Allthough not many met that kinda comp, it still ruined alot for those who met them.

I feel its the same thing now, sure many might not meet it . But those who do, cant do anything about it.

Doesnt matter if its just a few, its unhealthy for the game. It’s a big enough problem for people to get annoyed, and avoid playing 2’s.

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You just invalidated entire pve content of WoW so your solution is plant stupid.

read the last point, i said gear could be like wod pvp gear so it wont be good for pve. Skill progression should not be influenced heavily by gear progression in pvp that is my point

You play RPG. And in such games systems what magicaly increse itemlvl of your gear based on type of content you do are absolute nonsense. WoW need to be less systemic not more.

you just see it in a different way. Pvp it’s not like pve, and especially in shadowlands gear progression in pvp creates a ridicolous gap between new and geared players that doesn’t allow new ones to learn the pvp. In pve you always fight enemies adapted with your gear but in pvp you get stomped by people with 20 30 more ilvl than you, it’s not the same thing.

Then solution to this problem is to reduce gap in power not adding hidden systems what magicaly revalue your stats.