Everyone can scream "wrong". Only a few can give facts... so where are yours?I see you only pointing fingers, never giving actual valid feedbackIf I am wrong in sooooo many ways, it should be easy to name a couple of them, right?
I will simply say this: One person's genocide is another person's 'incident' or 'misunderstanding'.
For a game example: We still got Horde people saying Teldrassil and Hillsbrad were perfectly fine \o/
Doesnt change the basic of our morale codex, which says: Genocide is immorale.
For our (western) standards nearly every race in WoW does something immorale to our codex. And that was the matter of discussion.
About the morale codex of the races, I give you right. The forsaken dont see a Teldrasil as genocide, where alliance see it (rightfully by our western standards).
A forsaken doesnt see Hillsbrand as wicked, everyone else does (and happily we got a choice to smash or rescue the human seeds).
But this difference happens because they are non-human and dont have our history or political development (there is no democracy in wow f.e.)
So by judging from our earth human perception and morale: Genocide is immorale
But from every single wow race... its another page
Yeah, and you know why people aren't ok with the Alliance (and the Horde) doing evil stuff randomly? Because it's bad writing, and because we want the story to make sense. if the Alliance is just going to do evil stuff for the sake of ""moral ambiguity"", you can be sure someone is going to argue that the faction shouldn't be used into a tool for that (not that it really matters, since the factions are tools, as Blizzard already admitted).
No its actually good writing.
No faction as large as the Alliance would have nothing but holy good characters, there needs to be some who are a little more grey and so far there isn't.
People keep whining about Baine and saurfang being traitors but they are at least a contradiction to the evil that is Sylvannis its actually made the story more interesting.
And yet Rodgers and Shaw arguably the more dubious characters in the alliance have done sod all so far.
Sometimes playing Alliance feels like wearing a chastity belt...
28/10/2018 21:11Posted by
Vukmar <span class="truncated">...</span>
There is no Grey when there is good reason behind it. At this point you can justify anything because of Teldrassil. Targeting bystanders is the only way for blizzard to get out of this writing.
Wrong. Genociding a specie without reason is not grey, it's evil.
Genociding part of a specie because it pose a threat is grey.
So, like the Horde attacking Darnassus ? Good that's cleared up.
They were just like, cutting of the supply lines between Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, so.
I liked the old name better.
Change it back blizz!
31/10/2018 05:59Posted by
Apaché So, like the Horde attacking Darnassus ? Good that's cleared up.
Can't hear you over the screaming of all the civilians deliberately burned to death \o/
This isn't exactly a surprise. When they were first sourced I was like "oooh, the Alliance is going in hard and nasty, I like it..." Then the wailing started. I mean fair enough the very name 'Purge Squad' was silly, I mean that's not what you call a unit you send out to kill sentient creatures capable of compassion, who have children, and essentially just look a bit funny. That's just not how you do things, your soldiers need to feel badass, to feel justified, not to have a name stating that they are basically murderers. Before anyone cites the Totenkopf from WWII, think before you do, is that -really- a good example? Does anything about Anduin scream 'Adolf' to you?
But no. We saw it a bit here, and it happened on the US forums as well. The latter is not surprising, as the Alliance is a self insert of America.
Exactly the same story as the Alliance killing civilian miners in Silithus. "N-No! The Alliance doesn't do that, we're good guys! They have to do something bad first!"
What is it going to take this time, do the Vulpera need to Yiffbomb Stormwind? Randomly attack some small Alliance outpost somewhere? What is the hoop to jump through to allow the Alliance to attack them and still wave the 'good guy' flag?
I love how when the Horde does something nasty, a small group will go "That's Bad Writing" but most will howl on the forums about how evil the Horde is, and you should feel bad about playing Horde. I'm not even kidding, I was called a fascist purely based on the grounds that I played Horde, in this very forum.
When the Alliance does something nasty, suddenly it is Bad Writing, and the outrage is so real, especially over the pond, that Blizzard go "Whoah, whoah, OK, we'll...change it so there is a reason, we'll justify your murder squads" People will trot out every atrocity committed by the other side, without realising they are essentially going "Well he said/She said" in terms of realistic debate.
It just seems like some people, mostly overseas, are not mature enough for the concept that sometimes good guys do bad things. I mean that is a thing. That happens. That's why people like Matthias Shaw exist, people like Kelsey Steelspark, Sky-Admiral Rodgers.
I mean, that's War. Once you dip your hands into that bloodied pool, they never come out clean, regardless of whether you are the righteous or the wicked.
Why the rebranding, why couldn't the Alliance just go "Do you know what, we don't care about these trash panda's, and they're helping the Horde, lets just waste them." Are Humans so inherently different in Azeroth than they are in our world? I mean we've killed people for worse reasons, so...why shy away from the Alliance doing it?
Its the 'Good Guy/Bad Guy' schtick that causes the problem, to maintain it, they have to go to extremes.
And -that- is the bad storytelling.
1 Like
the Alliance is a self insert of America.
So this is why it feels so wonderful to be the Alliance!
The Alliance! %$# yeah! Coming again to save the $&#^@$^#&$^% day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M
There's a slight mistake in the video's name though. They typed in "America" instead of "The Alliance".
Brigante, you conveniently forgot to mention Brennadam (Sylvanas' motivations drastically changed during beta because of Horde players' complaints) and the Fate of Saurfang questline (an entirely alternate questline added to give Horde complainers a choice, something that was never done for the Alliance) in your essay.
31/10/2018 14:16Posted by
Arctur (an entirely alternate questline added to give Horde complainers a choice, something that was never done for the Alliance)
An entirely alternate quest hand-in dialogue that allows you to skip the real questline's content. Don't act like it's an entirely different questline.
31/10/2018 14:16Posted by
Arctur (an entirely alternate questline added to give Horde complainers a choice, something that was never done for the Alliance)
An entirely alternate quest hand-in dialogue that allows you to skip the real questline's content. Don't act like it's an entirely different questline.
Don't act like the Alliance were given said choice in the past, and still you have the nerves to complain.
Asian Horde players want a pretty race to play ----> The Horde gets Blood Elves, who are hyped massively, while the Draenei aren't even mentioned in the expansion's trailer.
Horde players complain that Thrall isn't Warchief anymore ----> Blizzard turns Garrosh into a raid boss.
Horde players want their sexy waifu on the throne ----> Vol'jin is killed by random trash and Sylvanas becomes Warchief.
Horde players don't want to be the villains in Brennadam ----> Blizzard drastically changes Sylvanas' orders.
Horde players don't want to turn against their waifu ----> Blizzard, for the first time in the history of this game, gives players a real choice.
You are in no position to complain. Get off your high horse and open your eyes, because the Alliance is in a worst spot right now, since I am forced to defy my King, I am not given the beauty of choice, I am not given free will.
31/10/2018 14:26Posted by
Arctur Horde players complain that Thrall isn't Warchief anymore ----> Blizzard turns Garrosh into a raid boss.
Horde players want their sexy waifu on the throne ----> Vol'jin is killed by random trash and Sylvanas becomes Warchief.
Horde players don't want to be the villains in Brennadam ----> Blizzard drastically changes Sylvanas' orders.
Horde players don't want to turn against their waifu ----> Blizzard, for the first time in the history of this game, gives players a real choice.
Horde players aren't a hive mind.
As an example, I could say that "Alliance players whine about losing Teldrassil ----> Night elves suddenly become the ultimate Horde-killing guerrilla force that effortlessly reclaims their foothold in Kalimdor," but that doesn't speak for you specifically, does it?
Not all of us wanted those things that you listed. I would have been happy having Garrosh from Cataclysm through to Battle for Azeroth, provided that the guy didn't get bludgeoned to death with the villain stick in Mists of Pandaria.
31/10/2018 14:26Posted by
Arctur Horde players complain that Thrall isn't Warchief anymore ----> Blizzard turns Garrosh into a raid boss.
Horde players want their sexy waifu on the throne ----> Vol'jin is killed by random trash and Sylvanas becomes Warchief.
Horde players don't want to be the villains in Brennadam ----> Blizzard drastically changes Sylvanas' orders.
Horde players don't want to turn against their waifu ----> Blizzard, for the first time in the history of this game, gives players a real choice.
Horde players aren't a hive mind.
As an example, I could say that "Alliance players whine about losing Teldrassil ----> Night elves suddenly become the ultimate Horde-killing guerrilla force that effortlessly reclaims their foothold in Kalimdor," but that doesn't speak for you specifically, does it?
Not all of us wanted those things that you listed. I would have been happy having Garrosh from Cataclysm through to Battle for Azeroth, provided that the guy didn't get bludgeoned to death with the villain stick in Mists of Pandaria.
I imagine that you are addressing Brigante too. After all, Alliance players are not a hivemind.
31/10/2018 14:45Posted by
Arctur I imagine that you are addressing Brigante too. After all, Alliance players are not a hivemind.
That applies to him, myself and everyone else that has everyone criticized Alliance players as a unified whole.
But in this particular situation, which Alliance poster on this forum was in favour of the original iteration of the Purge Squad? I can't recall seeing anyone with a blue background who was really happy about that. Dislike of the Purge Squad seemed pretty unanimous at the beginning.
People are only cooling down about it because the Alliance perspective is that they're just "scaring off" the Vulpera for transporting Horde supplies, and because they've no longer got that name. Nevermind that the Horde perspective still involves the Purge Squad - sorry, I mean the 7th Legion - exterminating Vulpera.
I would have been happy having Garrosh from Cataclysm through to Battle for Azeroth, provided that the guy didn't get bludgeoned to death with the villain stick in Mists of Pandaria.
Cataclysm Garrosh was the best kind of Warchief the contemporary Horde ever had. And by contemporary, I mean the Horde that grew out of the Underdog status.
I’ll die on this hill.
31/10/2018 15:28Posted by
Zarao I would have been happy having Garrosh from Cataclysm through to Battle for Azeroth, provided that the guy didn't get bludgeoned to death with the villain stick in Mists of Pandaria.
Cataclysm Garrosh was the best kind of Warchief the contemporary Horde ever had. And by contemporary, I mean the Horde that grew out of the Underdog status.
I’ll die on this hill.
Please stop it. Garrosh died just like he lived. Even in Northrend. A huge jerkface.
Please stop it. Garrosh died just like he lived. Even in Northrend. A huge jerkface.
And Varian was a brash, hard-to-like jerkface as well. He and Garrosh were the aggressive representatives of the Alliance and Horde in Northrend, while Jaina and Thrall were the more peaceful representatives.
Except Varian was redeemed and made a nice and honourable dude by his son's efforts, whereas Garrosh was bludgeoned with the villain stick until he was unrecognisable and so began the game of Musical Warchiefs.
WotLK-Cata Garrosh was a flawed, war-like individual, with his own personal sense of honour and a lack of the experience that had mellowed out older orcs. If they only focused on the side of him shown at Stonetalon Mountains, he could have transformed into a very interesting character. Instead, he goes on to commit far worse war crimes than the one he condemned at the start of the very next expansion and everything goes downhill from there.
28/10/2018 15:28Posted by
Arctur A war that the Horde started, I might add, when they erased Darnassus from history, and committed genocide.
War was inevitable, with or without the burning of Teldrassil. It's completely irrelevant. If the Horde didn't make the first move, Alliance would, and at the end of day, the Horde would be Alliance's lapdogs....like they were since the beginning of WoW.
History shows that even a peace achieved is temporary, war will always begin again due to conflicts between the Alliance and Horde. Alliance leadership, especially the humans, want others to be like obedient dogs and that's where the issues always arise. Second issue being inability to see past their morality.
Cataclysm Garrosh was the best kind of Warchief the contemporary Horde ever had. And by contemporary, I mean the Horde that grew out of the Underdog status.
I’ll die on this hill.
Indeed, he was the kind of Warchief the Horde needs, unbending and unbreakable. Alliance expects everyone to bend the knee (except for draenei id pressume, the only mentally decent race). Well, you won't expect that from the likes of Garrosh and rightfully so.
They deserved to get attacked. Nobody said the mana nuke was justified.
Dude, like, I don't answer your directly most of the time, since it's pretty much a waste of time. But I will do you this one honor.
You guys cannot constantly win battles, be bad-asses AND be righteous. You cannot have it both ways. Either you get to win battles and beat-up the weak Alliance daily (like you've done since WoTLK), or you get to lose battles but retain the "moral highground", like the Alliance have been doing since WoTLK.
I'm not saying the Alliance is pure and just (they do have some sketchy !@#$ going on, I'm sure) but it's times better than the nigh-anarchy ruling over the Horde at the moment, and the absolute absence of any and all forms of honor.
So, please keep complaining about being an honorless and gutless bunch, for which you are entitled to. BUT if you do so, then do NOT assume that you are mistreated and/or deserve moral greyness. You guys ARE the bad guys here, you guys DO murder indiscriminately and you do NOT care for honor NOR sacrifice. The 2 people on your side, who still have even a single shred of decency are A: Baine (and you guys spit on him daily); and B: Saurfang (who you currently try to kill for wanting freedom).
Please, quit your damned hypocracy. Be normal. As far as that's possible...
A !@#$ing Men!! This..A Hundred times this. If horde posters could just understand this simple point about their faction since Cata it would make the forums a million times less toxic and a %^-*storm.