There is many specs across classes that have similar rows, where u have to choose between mobility/defense/utility.
There are also rows where u have to choose between ST/aoe/lil frok both… U also complain u have to choose here and u dont have it all?
What choice? More often than not, all you get is merely the illusion of choice.
The more you make the talent row important, the more you kill choice, because the most optimized and powerful talent will always get picked.
True choice can only exist in minor details. Picking Tiger’s lust instead of Chi torpedo won’t massively gimp your monk’s performance.
But 100% of resto shamans will always pick Echo of the elements. 100% of resto shamans will pick Earthen-wall totem.
Same for covenants. The most powerful ones have already been established.
Every PvP healer and every PvP caster will pick Venthyr just because of the passive 20% reduction on interrupt duration.
“Choice” is an empty buzzword.
Illusion of choice means that regardless which talent you pick, the result is the same, more mobility.
It’s funny to me how not only that you get the definition of choice wrong, but actually turn it upside down.
I disagree. Whereas most people pick Chi torpedo because it travels faster, I pick Tiger’s lust because it dispels roots and can be used on allies as well.
DbtS does nothing vs spells,(besides damage reduction like enraged regen) which is more then half of the classes, so, if you’d rather have DbtS vs enraged regen, go for it, but you are choosing the weaker one for sure.
Same with dks. we have to choose from a bad heal or the only mobility ability we could have. Its really stupid that we have to choose between being able to move or being able to heal.
You got spell reflection and pummel to consistently prevent damage from casters.
You have nothing against melees. Die by the sword is way more useful.
Yeah but thats not becouse of bad desing. Its becouse he is entilted gamer what want to be optimal in all situations and have class on 100% of its potencial power for compettive reasons. Too bad this is rpg where choices should matter. There is no choice if you have 3 mobility talents. You just end up picking best ppssible mobilitu skills for this and that situations without any downside. I dont get why have todays gamers such problem with existences of punishment for making choices. Its literaly what makes game a game.
Nah I completely relate to stupid talent tree choices.
Shadow has a similar row with one mobility vs two survival. And it’s like… what’s this then?!
You either have a full row of mobility or a full row of survival skills that you can mix and match according to the content you’re doing.
I mean movement speed on bubble vs a raid heal and a self heal. How is that meaningful?
I agree with Gannet here.
I’m actually game for a talent row having a theme, but a loose theme, the means to achieve it should offer some variation which makes the choice feel significant beyond picking for “X situation and x situation largely” and pick because it feels with a playstyle.
I feel like the monk tree lacks this on their non output rows. The mobility row is essentially picking between more frequent rolls, bigger rolls or a new mini sprint. None of them have other frills attached and so they essentially boil down to “mobility, but in X situation Y may be better than Z a bit”. Which leads to one talent largely being better in most scenarios because it’s generally better outside of X in general. In this case in PvE it’s chi torpedo and PvP tigers lust. It doesn’t matter what the rest of your build is, that’s true.
It’s the same for the WW defensive row with inner strength and the other two. The pick is entirely based upon what type of situation may be most common, not your build in general.
It’s a preference thing but I prefer it if my build has some internal coherence as well, so my picks talk to each other and it’s not just whatever situation I’m in.
Take the “resources row” for Outlaw which all specs share. Passive regen boost, increased resource capacity and finisher damage and then manual grant of resources on demand.
Not only does each have external situations then shine in, they also go better or worse with other talents you pick and what kind of build or style you’re going for, despite the fact they all do the same thing: increase resources. They also do it quite differently.
It’s the same for the outlaw rogues “mobility” tier or I’d call it more loosely “pursuit” tier. Increase range in all abilities, passively boost movement speed or boost grappling hook. Close to the monk mobility tier, but there are different ways of going about the idea (such as increasing the range you can engage) whereas the monk one lacks this kind of variation. They’re all speed boosts in some way or another. For example a talent that improves transcendence would have be ideal instead of two that boost roll.
Mister “RPG”, how DH and rogues having both good mobility and defensive on the same time as baseline abilities nice, when as ret, DK or warrior, I get to use one them as a mutually exclusive choice?
I don’t know, ask those who’re advocating for such design…
Here the thing : Need more movement? Then pick movement talent. Need more defensive stuff? Then take that defensive option.
As regarding mobility, you sometimes want a burst in mobility, like switching on an add on the other corner of the room. You sometimes also want a consistent sprint, when you need to kite adds.
Actually, there is way more choice in 3 different mobility talent that offer different things, compared to like the old Druid talent when you got:
Renewal/Wild Charge/Displacer Beast
Majority of time, mobily allow you to negate the damage and to go back doing your role faster.
Some people picked displacer beast,i was personally in love with the disengage offered by wild charge, but literally i never ever picked Renewal, because dodging damage is way better than healing part of it back up.
The talent tree is one of the reasons I stopped playing warrior. Why do I have to sacrifice (my already poor) mobility to get a stun? Or a damage reduction? It feels terrible 
Yes, that’s dumb design, having to chose between different types of abilities.
You want meaningful? I don’t want meaningful, i want FUNCTIONAL talent trees.
What’s the meaningful part anyway? Choosing between different types of abilities isn’t meaningful, want to know why? Because you’ll always pick the one more useful for your needs.
Why is this different for example than between picking 3 mobility abilities?
Because the mobility abilities can actually be balanced among themselves, as they are from the same category.
So what’s left to pick then between mobility options? Flavor and gameplay, that’s what.
It’s picking between:
a) a leap
b) reduced charge cd
c) a burst movement speed increase on a small cd
And that means balancing the talent rows can become closer than ever when you have the same types of abilities.
Ret suffers from the same on the lvl 35 row, we have:
a) Unbreakable Spirit - defensive
b) Cavalier - movement
c) Eye for an Eye - defensive
this is the best talent design in the entire history of this game which needs to come back and be taken as inspiration for all other classes.
https://i.imgur.com/KUqxupp.png
sustainability row
cc row
defensive row
anti-cc row
damage row
damage row
perfection
Fury has spell reflect and pummel also, with a decent cd so I wouldnt say consistently, but whats ur point? we’re talking about enraged regen vs DbtS, DbtS is a weaker def cd in most situations is all I’m saying.
…That’s what I’m saying. Fury already has tools to deal with casters.
No tools to directly deal with melee though, which is what DBTS is all about.
Which is why it’s far more useful than Enrage regeneration.
Grimoire of supremacy, my love, where are you?