And you find it hard to read. Maybe classic / SoD is aimed at you since you clearly don’t even understand the discussion taking place.
No, not every spec needs to be simple, you can play frost or fire when you want to play a easier spec.
Enhc has a Stormbuild for those that want less buttons. And most Enhc shamans I have talked to or seen love Enhc. Why would you change it for other people?
Resto, also no… those buttons have a purpose. Especially since its a healer
Lol, rogues beside maybe outlaw have not many buttons, but here again… you have easier alternatives. If you cant handle many buttons, play Sub.
Another utility healer… so no, and base holy pala is straight forward and easy
Pretty sure people that play BrM like it for the gameplay. And MW is a healer, why would it need less buttons.
Pretty sure there are a lot of alternatives for people that dont like many buttons allready. And there are enough builds you can choose from that turn lots of specs into less ‘‘bloated’’ specs.
So there is no reason to butcher the classes again. WoD-BFA was bad enough in terms of class design.
I have played Brew last season, and you press a lot of buttons just to try to get threat. Good luck playing without Rushing jade wind or Bonedust brew, with more passives, but you are getting a very hard life. Not that i debate Rushing jade wind or bonedust are good or bad buttons in itself, but you do not really have a choice. To me it would be a good start when we did not have an upkeep button like rushing jade wind.
Deja already summed up some numbers about mistweaver in this topic. I do have mixed thoughts about it since i enjoy it having a lot of defensives, movement options and cc. It is also a difference the bloat is in situational buttons or rotation buttons, like with brew.
That means the buttons serve a purpose.
BUT I get what your problem is, in that case the solution would be increase the Threat-gen for the main-spells a little.
I dont know, I played BrM in the past as my Tank-alt and loved having lots of stuff going on. My friend of my old M±Group also never had a Problem and loves it and I can garantue you that we know what we are doing.
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For MW… I mean, there are literally choices you can make in terms of defensives that are passives. You also dont have to pick the talents that gives you more CDs.
But lets be honest, EVERY high difficulty player loves having a lot of def-CDs since that what makes people viable/survive the content, especially since FW-MW needs to stay in melee.
And I will go for the classic: If you dont play any difficult content min-max is not an issue, so play what and how you want and see where it carries you.
I can garantue you, as a shaman player I would kill for your amount of Deff-CDs… even if that adds 4 more buttons :>
I am not disagreeing with you. But i also play frost DK and i just have set up my guardian druid. And those specs are in no way comparable with the already mentioned ‘bloated’ specs. It is not the same game. Comparing frost DK with a brew/mistweaver means literally half the amount abilities. Something is wrong. Or frostDK/guardian do not have enough buttons or the mentioned have too many. It is not discussing about 1 ability more or less.
I would say thats the alternatives people can choose from when they dont like lots of buttons and still want to somewhat perform.
As I mentioned lots of specs have also alternative builds that reduce the button amount.
I see a problem in removing buttons simply because we have been there allready and for me it greatly reduced the fun of the game. BFA was unplayable for me because every class was boring and dull.
I get that some people dont like many buttons, but when there are allready lots of classes/specs/builds for them to play, than why shouldnt there be a alternative for us people that want more? This thread basically wants to remove this alternative, which is the reason I will strongly be against this. It was bad enough they removed lots of totems (the signature of Shamans) for people that are not into shamans in the first place.
Well, i played brew in SL too, and there it was less buttons. Telling someone to reroll because blizzard added a lot is not really a good situation, imo. By the way same for resto shaman, holy paladin and mistweaver. I’ve got shadowlands dungeon portals on all of those.
Those specs/classes were allways one of those with more buttons compared to others.
So while I see that maybe some people get at their limit, people that play these are pretty used to it and like their classes for exactly these said tools. Wouldnt you agree?
Since you also an M+ Player that plays on a higher lvl, you should understand how important most of the abilities these classes have in M+ are. Especially when its about CDs.
Well no i do not agree. I have been a main healer since forever. There is a limit.
I think for the most part it is fine. I do think there are outlier specs. I am not complaining about my dampen harm, defuse magic, fortified brew and life cocoon. Or the added interrupt button we never had. Obviously they are all usefull. But the question is, isn’t it too much? We can make up another 10 abilities that are usefull. That does not make it a good game just because all those 10 new abilities are important. Is the game better when we also add Touch of Karma to mistweaver? which would be a very good button.
Well, than we have to agree to disagree.
I will allways like to have more buttons, especially when they add something to the gameplay/utility.
And I can promise you, if they do another big Prune I am out of here again. I dont need to play this game… and I will refuse to play when they do another BFA.
And that audience is smaller and smaller.
To be fair, I played retail before, and last few days wanted to give it a try again with my friend who never played WoW before, but then I remembered what I have to do and gave up. Playing Resto/Ele Shaman gave me carpal tunnel.
All my friends who tried to play it, felt overwhelmed, confused and quit very quickly. WoW is having a hard time to keep new players, returning ones comes and go and core community is smaller and smaller. They need some changes and that’s the fact. That’s why they bring back Matzen, they need new ideas.
I’m saying easier, not easy. Simplifying something doesn’t mean making it easy. Arcane needs a simplifcation for sure. It’s way too hard to a degree where it’s not fun anymore. I hope we will see a big pruning in the future. You can write all these walls of texts, but the truth is that some specs are too bloated.
Brewmaster monk needs a very hard simplifcation for example. Tanking and deciding pulls is already a difficult task. Playing a tank should never be as complex as brm with 40 buttons and multiple buffs to keep up and also keep track of like rushing jadewind or purifying stagger properly.
It’s only your opinion. A lot of people like simpler class design as well. There is no real “right or wrong”. The only right is what the players prefer. Additionally, in a fantasy rpg it’s always a bit weird to ask people to play an “easy class” to avoid an abomination like arcane mage. Not everyone plays classes like it was a moba. Some have immersion and wanna stick to their main with their preferred class fantasy.
I am not asking for butchering specs. But there has to be some kind of amount of limit. We can not keep adding and adding and adding and in the end having 3000+ abilities and still say we need them all and actually still more since there are more to come up with.
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I am starting to doubt you tbh based on this. If you think you know what you’re doing on a BrM alt, you probably have very shallow understanding.
I see, so you don’t know how to play shaman. That makes sense given your responses. Whenever you don’t actually realise the complexity of something, then it appears very shallow. I can see and acknowledge high complexity in easier classes, because skill ceiling ramps up quicklier than you realise. You see the best fury warriors being the same every season for a reason. It’s not just random. They have mastery over their “easy class”.
“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” -Bruce Lee
Honestly, I very much doubt that. The game doesn’t overwhelm you with systems. The only thing I can agree on is the tutorial isles being disconnected from current WoW lore (since it is still set in BfA era).
In fact, the tutorial isle doesn’t even teach enough things. WoWs issue is not “being bloated” but rathermore “being badly explained” to new players.
No it doesnt, you can allways play frost and fire if you want an easier time… the way you write let me suggest you BM-Hunter as a possible spec for you…
No they are not… MAYBE its YOU.
Brewmaster is an alternative for players that want more… not happy with that ? Play guardian.
Yes, and most of those people dont play at a level where it matters how they play.
Same goes for the people that want to prune classes… most of the time they can easily spec into easier less ‘bloated’’ builds, because they dont play good enough that the better and more complex builds outdamage the easy ones.
A grey parsing Elementalist-Enhc will never out-dps the easier Storm-Enhc. Same goes for any spec that has alternative builds.
Dude, and I am still in contact with the BrM-monk of my old group… with whom I played for many years. He runs around 3k score atm with parses above 95.
We discuss tanks a lot due to it being my mainrole, back in the day… and still is my favourite alt role.
ITS YOU THAT DOESNT LIKE IT…AGAIN YOU! My friend plays BrM-Monk since they came out and he loves the way it is played right now.
Tell me you dont know what you are talking about without saying it.
It is well known that shamans and hunter are extremely squishy especially in M+ content.
And before I quit mid S1 due to leaving my group I did parses above 95. And in the time I played SL my parses were 99. So try again to paint me in a bad light.
No, relevance at all.
Yes, people that master their class no matter what they master mastered it … congratz.
Doesnt change the fact that some classes are simply way more complex and difficult than others… which btw are also mastered.
BTW the best players in the world, often play multiple classes on the highest lvl, and it still dont change that certain classes dont have a high skill cap.
I was called a masochist when I asked how someone that was rather high as disc last season enjoyed BTM when they were playing holy priest for BTM and said I mained holy.
Many people agree with me as well.
Anyway, you showed in numerous occasions in this discussion that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and you try to force your personal opinion as the objective truth, so not wasting time here with non-sense.
→ Some specs are very very bloated with bad skill floor. Bad skill floors are bad for the game, and bloat is only producing skill ceiling that nobody actually reaches. In fact, nobody has probably reached the absolute mastery over any spec in the game anyway. It’s more about how much estimated % of theoretically perfect gameplay someone reaches. You could prune specs to vanilla, if you want, and I’m confident the vast majority of people aren’t close to having mastery over the game. Wouldn’t go that far. I think Something in the middle between WotLK and Dragonflight complexity is good.
That’s why we need a pruning imo. It benefits close to nobody in reality truly to have all this bloat in the game. Unreached skill caps are increased, while the game is way more annoying to get into. This is probably why PvE content in this patch is so brainlessly easy, especially M+. We moved from hard content with easy classes to hard classes with brainless content. Congratz to the illusion of complexity, which you likely don’t understand anyway based on your responses.
I mean, everyone is free to enjoy the spec they like.