What do you want from me? I just tried to explain why Aster meaned.
Nothing. I have said what I wanted to say.
And what does it means, huh? You said something about attitude, even if I did nothing.
The ideals he represented predate his reign. The Warsong were in Ashenvale long before he became Warchief.
As for the restâŚnever seen any other race experimenting on people and rendering entire areas unliveable? Take a look at Azshara, Kezan,âŚ
Unfortunately for you, the Forsaken are a playable race. With as much right to live on as the 10% of the High Elf population that went Horde after hopping itself on Fel, the criminal Cartel that prouds itself of extorting, slaving, and killing its opposers, the warmonger time travelling orcs, the savages that offer ritual sacrifices with their prisoners, and a long etc.
If you feel like certain race tickles some delicate sensibilities, the Horde isnât really cut for you. Unless you are playing an isolationist Tauren hermit.
The Horde was conceived with lax morals. Given its average standards, Forsaken do seem to be slightly above average regarding twisted mindset. But not enough to mark them that much ahead of the rest of playable races.
Nightborne is almost touching bottom list.
And because you find that those skimpy clothes fit in with their race and theme, should people start saying that you like them because:
Regardless of the fact that you might like the theme, motive, story, or plot they represent? Or because of the reasons Anouk mentioned above?
Didnât it pass your head that maybe people that argue in the Forsaken/Sylvanas favour might have the same reasoning as you regarding Night elves? Or was it that you just felt like hopping on the trendy hate train that certain people use to belittle players that have story tastes different to theirs?
Anyway, Iâll leave it here. This is derailing the thread.
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Where I did it? Could you quote it please?
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Garrosh was far ahead of the warsong on cruelty, stupidity and racism. His reason for invading Ashenvale wasnât bad, it was the things he did in this war that were bad.
I, like many people, liked the Garrosh we saw in early Cataclysm. Still far from perfect, but on a good way with a good advisor and showing promise in Stonetalon for example. What came after was the bad thing.
Ritual Sacrifices are a Blood Troll thing. The Zandalari seem to not do them anymore, just as cannibalism.
And I can walk through Azshara without choking on the Blight. Itâs not nearly as destroyed as lets say Southshore or Lordaeron after the Forsaken were done with them. And Kezan too was still inhabitable when the Cataclysm struck.
Yes: Other races do shady stuff too,
Slavery (is it really slavery or just forced labour of prisoners? not sure about it. Never saw a slave market in Goblin Cities) is bad, but not nearly as bad as burning tens of thousands of people alive. Deforestation is bad, but not nearly as bad as blighting a whole region.
Imprisoning people is bad, but not nearly as bad as using them as a guinea-pig to develop a blight or raising someone as undead.
Sylvanas and her people are on the same level as the Scourge now. Or can you tell me one thing that Arthas did, that was worse then what Sylvanas did?
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Well, she still doesnât build a abomination out of children afaik.
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Shut up, donât give Blizzard ideas!
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âI need to break my enemiesâŚâ and voilĂ !
Wasnât a replica of Thaddius in the 8.1 PTR in the Darkshore warfront?
Or am I remembering wrongly?
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I dunno, but here is a abomination which was made from the body parts of stormsong guards.
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It was datamined at some point but was never implemented. âForsaken Flesh Titanâ is the exact name.
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They thought probably that it would be too scourge like ^^
How do you know? The abominations are just amalgamations of body parts stitched together, itâs entirely possible, if not obvious, that at least one abomination serving the Banshee Queen contained a few children body parts stitched together. Furthermore, you canât deny that Sylvanas has the face and attitude of someone who doesnât care one bit about the children.
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Nothing, but way their fans are doing it and justifying Sylvanasâ actions is just ridiculous! She is an evil character if you support such just say so. Do not try to bring her on level of high morale or name her actions reasonable for the rest of the Horde because it is not.
You want to be fan of character? Thats fine, but like them with their flaws.
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Your initial premise was about how the Forsaken were committing war crimes. If thatâs the case, which arguably it is, then so are most of the rest of Horde races. Alliance too.
The Forsaken are not an oddity amongst level or moderate mindsets, and instead have slightly become a tad above average regarding the overall Horde mindset when it comes to bad stuff.
Orcs have certainly been bad people. Blood elves have/had some nasty habits. Goblins too.
And etc.
In short, saying that the Forsaken are the only ones holding the Horde in some villain pit, is just plainly wrong.
Blizzard proved with Zuljin, Kaelthas, Magatha, and Pandaria and WoD with the orc race, that they donât need the Forsaken to villain bat the Horde when they feel like the narrative requires it.
Scapegoating all the problems on them, seems like shifting the blame on to someone you personally donât like.
You can do that, but it doesnât make the reasoning you feel like excusing it with any more true.
And regarding your second question, Iâve yet to see Sylvanas doing half the bad stuff Arthas did. Starting with the scale.
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Scale ist Just a Thing of ability. And You didnât answer the question. What specific evil did Arthas so, that Sylvanas didnât do (or tried and failed)?
And i donât think all the Problems in the Horde are their fault, Just that their mindset and Lack of morality was a big Problem for coherent storytelling on the Horde side since Vanilla.
On one hand You Had people trying to Show the World that they are Not evil, in the other the Forsaken with experiments and torture chambers, plague development, abominations etc.
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Me, me! I know! Pick me!
Well, the only thing that Arthas did and Sylvanas didnât do (yet) is blowing up the sunwell.
Since Cata, those people ceased to exist. âThe noble savageâ and âpeaceful shamanistic raceâ are pretty over since then.
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I think burning teldrassil is on the Same Level.
And since Trolls, Tauren and a majority of orcs worked together to depose Garrosh the noble savage Horde was still alive and kicking after
Garrosh was gone. Just look what the horde did in WoD.
The real downfall came with Sylvanas rule.
Zuljin wasnât really a villain, he fought for what he believed in and just happened to be an mortal enemy to our allies. But in a way he was a freedom fighter for his people who still see him as a hero and martyr.
Kaelthas was killed in a time when Blizzard didnât really care for the story, and many think that he was just killed to give the players a cool name.
Magatha was an enemy to the Horde since forever.
And the Orcs in WoD had 2 sides, the Iron Horde (deceived by Garrosh claiming to speek for the spirits) and the Frostwolves / laughing Skull who were mostly good people.
And even the remaining Orcs from the Iron Horde were ok, after we showed them the truth.
Like i said, i never said that the Forsaken are the only problem. But they are a big problem in giving a good story to the Horde, since every story that would fit the rest of the Horde without problem, would feel wrong for the forsaken mindset, and vice versa.
They fit like a left shoe on a right foot.
Just like Nightelves for the Alliance.
Both races should have been neutral and unplayable and many storytelling problems would never have happened.
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If broader things like scale donât matter, I could draw parallels between Arthas and virtually every undead that at any time had the ambition to push his goals beyond survival alone.
But given you want a specific case, as current writing goes, the ones Sylvanas raises have free will.
And I still think that Arthas world domination greatly trumps Sylvanas more specific goal about destroying only Horde enemies. Stated goals considered, and leaving aside speculation and theories.
We know for certain that plenty non-Forsaken want this war. And we have tangible proof of non-Forsaken doing nasty things in this war.
The war started with something Saurfang himself agreed upon, Rexxar is making his way into Stormsong and Tiragarde, Eitrigg doing likewise in Drustvar,âŚ
The overall war effort is portrayed as a joint force that includes almost every Horde race.
And one of the two warfronts is thematically based around orcs vs humans (having the bulk of said story driven by those two races).
Yeah, the Forsaken are driving half the warfront experienceâŚwith a joint venture that includes goblins.
The reliquary, Lasan, Lorash, Geyarah, Liadrin,âŚ
The overall war effort counts with the approval of every race. With slight differences regarding punctual acts (Derek or Teldrassil), which, arenât really setting the tone for the overarching plot or modus in this war. Iâll refer again to the overall war effort, warfronts, assaults, etc.
I recall all sorts of races on Brennadam (not that I enjoyed said portrayal, but it certainly serves to showcase how said mindset isnât contingent to being some undead psycho).
Given this mindset, Tauren and Pandaren are a problem for the Horde story too. And Blood elves.
Whatâs with this ongoing trend to dump several differentiated races into the same category? Diversity breeds better narrative, not worse.
And Cataclysm/Pandaria points at how the old Horde mindset can be just as detrimental for the faction as the Forsaken one.
I donât want the Horde to follow the same archetypal theme. Races should feel unique and complement each other to create engaging stories.
If I switch between my Troll and my Forsaken I want to feel a difference. Not play skinny orc, and tall orc.