This post from reddit is spot on

[Bukachu-argent-dawn]

@Dejarous-draenor

Starcraft 2 was awesome. And it came out later than that.

Wotlk was awesome too and it lasted till 2010.

[Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Jito-turalyon

The best thing Blizzard can do is to stop listening to player feedback and start listening to themselves and their colleagues. That’s how great games get made

False.
This may work within a bubble or when you first start off making a game, but player feedback is what really helps make or break a game.

As it is right now, Blizzard doesn’t take player feedback seriously to begin with, so no idea why you’re making these long-winded posts defending Blizzard from players upset with the game.

Just gonna say it: Final Fantasy 1, a game that I believe also takes Player Feedback into consideration, stays a great game.

Then again the team behind that game works with love and passion for their creation, what is Blizzard’s excuse?

@Jito-turalyon

Player feedback is 99% of the time complete and utter garbage.

I guess that’s why they’re making changes to some of the features with the Covenant system, because “They” are the ones who came up with it, and not the players who’ve voiced discontent with some of it, right?

@Jito-turalyon

The reason why we keep circle-jerking between new and old design systems is because the players can’t think outside the box and be creative.

Problem with that is, you can’t be “Creative” with whatever system is in place. I mean, you can either stack certain effects for greater outcome for a certain ability. There’d be a lot more creativity involved if you could wear more than one Legendary as well, for example.

You can’t exactly “Think outside the box” when your foot is chained to a radiator and you can only work within the confines of your spot.

@Jito-turalyon

You will never ever ever find a suggestion or idea by any player that is unique and new and their own.
No one has ever come to this forum and suggested a brand new feature or concept or anything.

Have you ever heard of the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t try and fix it”?

Perhaps the reason people are asking for older features to make a return is because those features were good? And don’t act as if players never ever brought forth a good idea, only to be rebuked and have the idea later be introduced as an “Original idea” by Blizzard.

@Jito-turalyon

And the OP is copy/pasting some post where a Blizzard developer is quoted as saying that the recent changes are happening because the developers want to make them.

@Jito-turalyon

So I support that

Great. The current development team wants to play a videogame with no charm or personality and is ashamed of anything of a more saucy nature.
I guess I’ll just go ahead and keep playing FF14 where the main questline for A Realm Reborn features a character that has the quest dialogue of “I only lie about being a Champion of Heroes to get with the women, and even that ends in disappointment because my member’s tiny.” and wears a speedo instead of pants.

Why is it there? Because it’s funny and appropriate humiliation for a character who is an incompetent worker and a fraud.

[anon20309957]

@Sutram-draenor

Being upset because devs decided to replace some paintings and names in the game is insane

Or players are angry that years of complaining about bs systems and in game activities were ignored by the devs only until the recent exodus of players but they’ve suddenly found time to change minor cosmetic things that the largest majority of players either didn’t notice or even care about.

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

Cata was great, so was Mop which had good class design and Wod sadly got killed despite having good ideas. Nah, Blizzard was still able to do great after tlk. I can’t say much aboot legion and post legion Blizzard, which is when Ion took over.

@Jito-turalyon

But these days, especially with WoW, it feels as if Blizzard have given development control over to the playerbase and it’s just about “listening to feedback” and doing anything and everything the players tell them to.

They didn’t listened to feedbacks. I mean, it took them 1 year to pull the ripcord, it took them 8 months to make essences account wide, it took them 18 months to fix legiondaries. As a raider, I know many raiders complained aboot Za’qul because it’s a boss based on both health %, so we literally have to stop playing in order to follow the strat. So we said : No more of that bs. Now, in Sod, 6 bosses are built with timers based on boss health %, which is really really boring.

@Jito-turalyon

The approach now seems to be that the more Blizzard listens to the players, the better the game becomes!

Turns out they should follow this path because they certainly didn’t since legion. I do have other examples that aren’t expansion features but were unwelcomed changes like BFA gcd and SL aoe cap. In the end, Blizzard fixed those changes by reverting those but had they listened at initial feedbacks aboot those changes, they would not have wasted time and HR on reverting those.

@Jito-turalyon

If the result of all of this is that Blizzard starts developing their games the way they want them to be, then that is a major victory and a huge step in the right direction

Because they’ve made the game for themselves, the game became bad. And I do think it’s quite odd that ion himself quit the game a month ago. Imagine quitting your own game that you supposedly made for yourself to enjoy.

@Jito-turalyon

Player entitlement in regards to game design and development has done nothing good for the video game industry the past decade.

Because they didn’t listened in the fist place.

@Jito-turalyon

That pressure that players assert on the development process does nothing good for anyone, and it never has.

So as players we can pressure with our wallets. Turns out, that 50% of raiding guilds and pvp players quit the game.

@Jito-turalyon

The best thing Blizzard can do is to stop listening to player feedback and start listening to themselves and their colleagues. That’s how great games get made.

So are you saying that borrowed powers aren’t harming the game. Nor the absolute gigantic amount of mandatory farming?

[Angellora-moonglade]

Imagine beeing upset about a painting, emotes and some names beeing renoved from a game.

How much of a snowflake are you?

[Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords]

Way to oversimplify the whole issue. I think Charctic puts it best:

@anon20309957

Or players are angry that years of complaining about bs systems and in game activities were ignored by the devs only until the recent exodus of players but they’ve suddenly found time to change minor cosmetic things that the largest majority of players either didn’t notice or even care about.

I would also add to this is that it’s an erosion of a game’s history, changing “Minor” things from expansions long ago.
Also, if you think that the removal of emotes for player-to-player interaction is not a big deal, then something’s not quite right with you.

[Odrihm-dalaran]

Imagine thinking it’s just about that.

[Benjamin-sunstrider (Benjamin)]

This game is bad and dead to me. There is absolutely no fun in there. These developers turn everything they touch into . Not only they ruined retail with their arrogance they also killed classic with the boost and their brilliant changes.

There is no reason to remain subscriped in this game. When my time runs out it will be goodbye, and with these clown developers I doubt I will return anytime soon.

Way to go pissing your paying customers like that.

[Benjamin-sunstrider (Benjamin)]

Well done, this game is for people like you.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords

False.
This may work within a bubble or when you first start off making a game, but player feedback is what really helps make or break a game.

I respectfully disagree.
The best games tend to be made in secret. Whether it’s God of War or Breath of the Wild or Sekiro or Death’s Stranding, then they’re a product of those who made them and not those who played them.

I think it would serve gamers well if they had more confidence in the developers’ ability to make great games.
And that goes for Blizzard’s developers as well.

@Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords

As it is right now, Blizzard doesn’t take player feedback seriously to begin with, so no idea why you’re making these long-winded posts defending Blizzard from players upset with the game.

I disagree with that statement. I believe Blizzard are mostly chasing player feedback with regards to both expansion and patch development.

@Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords

Then again the team behind that game works with love and passion for their creation, what is Blizzard’s excuse?

If you don’t have confidence or trust in Blizzard’s developers and their ability to make a good game, why do you even play their games in the first place?

@Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords

I guess that’s why they’re making changes to some of the features with the Covenant system, because “They” are the ones who came up with it, and not the players who’ve voiced discontent with some of it, right?

I don’t think that is an example where there’s disagreement between Blizzard’s design desires and the players design desires (it’s mostly the timeline that’s a cause of discontent on the players part). So it’s easy to implement regardless of who the desire comes from.

Besides, the measurement used by players to evaluate whether Blizzard listens to feedback is to look at whether they do the things they want them to do.
It reeks of entitlement and selfishness.

But take something like flying.
Blizzard asserted in WoD that they didn’t want flying.
Players pushed back on that.
Blizzard caved.
Now we have flying.
Is the game’s design a by-product of the developers vision or the players desire in that regard?
Who’s in control there?

Now Blizzard are making some changes to paintings and achievement names and what not.
And players are pushing back on that.
And I don’t think Blizzard should cave.
I think Blizzard should assert control over their own creation.
Because it’s theirs.

[Annaconda-ragnaros]

yeah I kind of agree with the reddit post. and I’d also add that these PC changes recently make me feel like I’m the one being sued for misconduct.

plus, I don’t mind the issues in WoW that happen by accident. like minor bugs and all. but blizzard’s refusal to cut out the time gating, player retention and artificial extension of content is absolutely disgusting and if one day I decide to finally quit, that will be the reason why.

[Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Jito-turalyon

The best games tend to be made in secret. Whether it’s God of War or Breath of the Wild or Sekiro or Death’s Stranding

Did you seriously just put Death Stranding in the same category as Breath of the Wild or Sekiro?

And just so you know, those games weren’t really “Made in secret”. Soon as you show them off to the public and share some details about it, then they’re not so very secret. Okay fine, Death Stranding was being vague and no one expected it to be an expensive looking glorified UPS Simulator.

@Jito-turalyon

If you don’t have confidence or trust in Blizzard’s developers and their ability to make a good game, why do you even play their games in the first place?

Simple: I don’t.
Or I should say, I still play Heroes of the Storm, which isn’t really saying much because that game hasn’t seen any major content updates since… Last Winter I think? When Hogger was released?

I’ve stopped playing all other Blizzard games because simply put, the teams behind them are incompetent. And even Heroes of the Storm is just a shadow of what it could’ve been if the ripcord on it wasn’t torn away.

@Jito-turalyon

But take something like flying.
Blizzard asserted in WoD that they didn’t want flying.
Players pushed back on that.
Blizzard caved.
Now we have flying.
Is the game’s design a by-product of the developers vision or the players desire in that regard?

You realize that developers of their games aren’t some kind of entities who cannot be questioned or rebuked if they come up with a terrible idea, right?

Flying is pretty much one of the big features for the game, and a lot of mounts are flying mounts. You remove flying, then we all might as well just use horses and wolves given how the big flying mounts would serve no purpose anymore.

@Jito-turalyon

And I don’t think Blizzard should cave

Then they deserve all the tomatoes thrown at them from players who think their priorities are warped.

If anyone’s looking to join me in Final Fantasy, I am on the Omega server.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Aibury-hydraxian-waterlords

Did you seriously just put Death Stranding in the same category as Breath of the Wild or Sekiro?

Ha! Yes! I haven’t played it myself, I just put it there to have a wide range of different games that were all the product of the developers own vision and desires. No player feedback required.

So why do players think they have to tell the developers how to make games?

Just let them do their job.

And then you play their games if you enjoy them, and if not, then you don’t.

Take something like music in WoW. Unlike game design, then few players try to be an armchair expert on the music. We just listen to it and either we appreciate it or we don’t. And then we express that here on the forums in simple terms. Yay or meh.
Blizzard has 100% complete creative control over the music design in WoW. There’s no player push for more trumpets or upset because they include too many flutes. We are okay with letting Blizzard’s own composers do their job to the best of their ability.

And it turns out that Blizzard making the music and us listening to it is the best combination!

I don’t think players serve themselves well by trying to wrestle with Blizzard over the control of the game design.
Feedback has become another term for “Do as I say!”
We also provide feedback on the music, but without the angle of “Do as I say!”
And it’s better that way.

[Isdy-wildhammer (Isdy)]

How can it be spot on. It’s Reddit for goodness sake. You have no information or detail about the author and or their credibility. Only you can make a judgement and never be influenced by social media junk that can’t be validated or verified. Especially from a junk data farming site like Reddit. Or Twitter or that other place. Bit like watching streamers on Google ( er sorry YouTube ) who profess to have an interest in Warcraft but actually just make money from Google for making videos.

Don’t be a sheep. Fight for your game. Cus when you are done bad mouthing it there wont be anything left for those of us that actually like the game. The world just loves a drama and nothing gets people hyped up more than the felling of a giant. Sadly its a product of social media and the idea that any snowflake is somehow important. So if you want your game then support the product and if you have a problem complain here or make a suggestion to the games developers. You owe it to the game to work with YOUR game. And if you want to use crappy Reddit to voice an opinion of a nobody in an attempt to destroy MY GAME then you are no friend of mine or my game. Take your comments off the forum and onto one of the many junk social media sites that seem to like scaring folk FOR FUN. Better still go on Google ( sorry YouTube ) and maybe join in with those other supposed Warcraft specialists that seem hell bent on biting the hand that feeds them.

I actually think you have also broken Reddit rules in quoting content from their forum and the moderators need to remove this post. It cannot be authenticated. Its meaningless nonsense.

So either play the game or maybe not. But please make valued comment here of your own views and stop spreading this bull from trashy social media sites that simply are not worthy to even drudge around the gutters of Stormwind with the rats.

One last thing and that is the last two years the world has gone through a pandemic of an unprecedented scale in modern times and all those involved will have been working tirelessly without a grumble to provide you with your game. We should be applauding their efforts and give them the support they deserve. Only we can make Warcraft strong. So maybe raise your flag and lift your head and be proud of your game… cus in truth only good things come from being positive. I love my World of Warcraft.

[Alagondar-bloodhoof (Alagondar)]

@Jito-turalyon

I think it would serve gamers well if they had more confidence in the developers’ ability to make great games.

That is the problem right there- the playerbase DOESN’T have confidence in the current dev team. I’m probably the worst casual player in the world so a lot of this doesn’t affect much (although I’m starting to get disillusioned with the game).
Yes I would love to see improvements, I just don’t have faith in the current team to do it

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Mikata-azjolnerub

All they care about are their woke agenda and to shove it down everyones throat.

But isn’t the best approach then that every game studio and development team makes games according to their own desires.

Then we as players can choose among them and pick the game(s) that appeal to us and we want to play.

If I want to play woke progressive fantasy game, then I can play WoW.
If I want to play Chinese pandering anime, then I can play Genshin Impact.

Isn’t that a better approach than trying to pretend that every game studio and development team has to try and cater to me and make every game appealing to me?

Why not just conclude that not all games are for everyone and it’s your responsibility as a gamer to choose what you want, it’s not the responsibility of the game developers to choose for you.

Isn’t that more simple?

If you don’t fancy the woke agenda that you think WoW is on, then just quit and play another game that’s more to your liking.

Why is that so hard?

[anon20309957]

@Jito-turalyon

I disagree with that statement. I believe Blizzard are mostly chasing player feedback with regards to both expansion and patch development.

They really aren’t.

Go and have a look back at the interviews Ion was involved in with streamers about Shadowlands. He doubled down on ignoring player feedback about Shadowlands because of how the Devs felt but never took into account the feedback from the alpha/beta testing from players who can now say “we told you so” if they even still play the game.

[Slinks-silvermoon]

@Jito-turalyon

Was Warcraft: Orcs & Humans made with input from players on the internet who rabbled on like crazy during its Beta process? No. Did it harm the game in any way? No.

I know i’m a bit late to the party , and I haven’t read below this comment but…
The devs that made that game are a completely different breed to current ones working on WoW lol. You simply can’t compare the two

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Alagondar-bloodhoof

That is the problem right there- the playerbase DOESN’T have confidence in the current dev team.

Then friggin’ quit already and leave the game to the people who do have confidence in the development team and who do enjoy the game.

[Alagondar-bloodhoof (Alagondar)]

Nah, think I will stay - old content is good fun for achievements, mounts, mogs wtc