Frozen, the Champion of Garrosh.
edit: Here comes Zakkaru, the Spear of Vol’jin.
Get ready to rumbleeeee!
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That’s literally what happenedon the video.
Garrosh said that he would gut him,
and Vol’Jin said that he would know exactly what to do:
-wait to see how people grow to despise him and then he would finish him.
His threat was based on how he would rule the Horde. All Garrosh had to do was to prove him wrong.
But Garrosh was already fighting with Vol’Jin in pre-Cata event over petty wording. And he was bigoted against the trolls (and belves and undead).
His stance was even more outrageous because he called trolls leeches, while if it wouldn’t be for Darkspears orcs would die off starvation.
I think Vol’Jin finally losing his temper made sense, there is amount of crap you can take, and trolls don’t take lightly behavior like that.
Sure Vol’Jin regretted it later in book, but only because his actions might’ve impact how his tribe was treated, not that he felt sorry for Garrosh.
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Oh, I am not arguing that it didn’t make sense or that Vol’jin was necessarily in the wrong in this instance.
I am just using the same logic to what makes people like Baine a traitor or spineless (etc…) to other members of the Horde. And I find it funny how people go to great lengths to say why this instance of a character doing X makes him a traitor but this instance of another character doing something very similarly to X but gets off with a free pass.
If Baine is at fault for not challenging Sylvanas for leadership because he and everyone knows that Sylvanas won’t play by the rules then this should apply to Vol’jin and as to why he didn’t challenge Garrosh in MoP because Vol’jin would know that he wouldn’t play by the rules during that time as well.
Vol’jin: open challange after open thread.
Baine: going behind Sylvanas back after moping about how evil she is.
Others can be considered traitors for their actions.
Lor’themar definitely. He wanted to join the Alliance until Jaina went on a rampage.
Sylvanas used the blight against his orders, but ultimately it was just going against orders, not betraying the Horde at this instance.
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The difference is that Garrosh was openly Hostile to him and his people, so I assume that people would call Vol’Jin spineless for letting Garrosh roll over him and not doing anything about it.
This way he and his people showed that Darkspears aren’t pushovers and won’t tolerate certain behaviours, while at the same time aiding Horde best he could. His troops were still in various fronts and it was he who was stressing out on Garrosh to finally attack Thearmore if they don’t want to fight on two fronts.
What made Vol’Jin act against Garrosh wasn’t that he was doing bad stuff to Alliance, or even assasination itself, but that Garrosh was toying with powers of old god, and that was the reason why he was attacked in the cavern - because he wanted to stop it. That was the stuff that could not only affect Horde but entire World.
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Tell me about it.
By openly challenge you mean started a civil war, right?
And no, Baine only went behind Sylvanas’s back during 8.1.5 with Derek.
Would it have been better for Baine or Saurfang to start a civil war right after the WoT or SoL? Is this what you have wanted?
Yes by all means Lor’themar is a traitor, but I am sure you can see you fellow countrymen and women defend him with their lifes because for some reason Lor’themar actively seeking to join the Alliance (and got really close in doing so) is fair because “Garrosh was mean”.
Sylvanas experimented on Horde citizens in Vanilla. She has never cared about the Horde and has actively undermined it to suit her needs. She can and is considered a traitor to not only the Horde but its ideals.
It doesn’t matter the reasoning of justification that Vol’jin had to do what he had to do. That doesn’t take away from the fact that he is (or was) by definition a traitor.
A lot of this does come down to how it was done, the way they did it with Vol’jin comes across a lot better than seeing Baine trying to do this. And why people are more forgiving and willing to defend it despite by principle being the same thing.
Not entirely correct. He was seeking the Divine Bell to mould his troops into the perfect warriors. The Sha part of this didn’t come into play until Vol’jin had already been attacked and was recovering in the temple, thus he wouldn’t really know about this part.
All whatwas known at the time was that the Divine Bell was a Titan-Mogu artifact used to create the Sauoak (or however you spell them), Old God influence didn’t come in until later thus it wouldn’t have been a factor at the time when Vol’jin was gonna start his rebellion.
I really can’t tell if that was sarcasm or a jab at me xd.
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Oh no, it wasn’t a jab at you. It’s just so boring now that it is hard to motivate to repeat the same things over and over, I honestly don’t know how you guys do this day in and day out.
But hey, TIL, supposedly there is acceptable traitorism, who knew. 
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I don’t see it as act of treason, it was a fight between two leaders which Garrosh started. If you call Vol’Jin a traitor then you’d have to also call Orgrimm Doomhammer a traitor for defying Blackhand.
The circumstances were different and the actions taken were different. This is what it really boils down to. If you’ll make a list of how Vol’Jin and Baine behaved and what actions did they take you’ll see the clear difference.
Vol’Jin found out about magic that was twisting beings into something else. The one what was used by Mogu to create Saurok if I remember correctly. It wasn’t tied diectly to Old god, because this is what Vol’Jin did after assasination - asked PC to scout for him and gather intel, once Vol’Jin found out about Heart of Y’shaarj he started to act. Because divine bell didn’t bother him in fact he wanted for it to be in Horde’s possesion rather than Alliance.
And this is again the proof that just because you are not in good relations with Warchief doesn’t mean that you’re a traitor. Vol’Jin was fiercly loyal to Horde, and all he wanted was respect from Warchief (which is something he said in the very video you liked) as one of the founding fathers and long time contributor to Horde’s growth.
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Anduin - bland. Put somebody who puts the meaning of “Warcraft” as Alliance leader.
Sylvanas - Lich King 2.0 is a laughable joke at this moment.
Aethas - simpering and useless. His Zin-Azshari ancestors are tossing and turning in their graves
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Just quoting myself here…
He only started the civil war after Garrosh sent assassins from his personal GESTAPO to kill him.
And he never hid his intentions.
Unlike Baine who openly works for Sylvanas, and behind her back attacks her Soldiers and freed a prisoner.
I understand it, and on a moral level i’m on his side. The only thing i don’t like about him, is HOW he goes against Sylvanas.
Going against your leader in itself is fine on the Horde side. Everyone has the right to openly challange a Warchief for the post.
The problem is not that he went against her, but the way he did.
But she betrayed the ideals, don’t she?
Yes, she does. The Ideals of the freshly founded horde. But if you are displeased with the direction the Horde takes you challange the Leadership and change the direction instead of going against it with sabotage etc…
And with “challange” i don’t necissarily mean Mak’gorah. Openly rallying your troops to challange on the Battlefield is fine too.
That’s stupid. If the game would be a lil bit realistic she would be kicked out a long time ago.
If the players had to say something she would never have started the war (and if i had to say something never have been warchief…). But unfortunately blizzard cares neither for the players nor for realism.
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Sadly it’s the truth ![:disappointed:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/disappointed.png?v=6" ":disappointed:")
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Let’s be honest here, Sylvanas is only Warchief because she’s popular.
The story was always going to feel sh!t with her (and her opposite as Anduin) leading the fronts.
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I read that one the forum, but most people i play with (pure PvE-realm, so no filtering for Allegiance or something) dislike Sylvanas and want to see her head on a spike as much as anyone.
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I know what you mean, sometime I really don’t know why I come on here at times.
I would like to talk about the lore and such, perhaps learn new things etc… But it just ends up getting into arguments, half of the time they are things which shouldn’t be arguable.
You can have disagreements and arguments with your leader and not instantly resort to treason. There seems to be a couple of steps missing from that.
Garrosh may of started it, but instead of trying to deescalate the situation and keep to his word he made to Thrall and the Horde Vol’jin doubled down and made a death threat.
Also, Doomhammer was a traitor. The only reason he challenged Blackhand was because Gul’dan was in a coma, before that no one including himself had the balls to challenge Blackhand because he was Gul’dans puppet and would do anything to keep him there.
I am all of a sudden get parallels… I wonder why that is.
There is somewhat of a difference I do agree, Baine just complains. But half of that was to do with Vol’jin barely getting any development during Garrosh’s rampancy. Or at least not any direct development with them being face to face.
Baine in always in the thick of it, he isn’t out of the picture doing nothing before Blizzard calls him up to do his part.
I am getting very confused with this, I miss-understood you with the Divine Bell bit so my bad.
So it wasn’t till after the assassionation when he was still recovering in the temple (and when the PC and Baine informed him of Garrosh’s plans to uncover and use the Heart of Y’shaarj) he finally acted and started forming the rebellion?
I know but like I put at the start when you start giving off death threats, insulting and saying Garrosh is no Warchief then you have crossed the line of disagreement to treason. This is all the way back at the start of Cata’ mind you.
I do agree Garrosh was being an unreasonable *sshole and Vol’jin did help the Horde.
Alright then, at this instance.
Sylvanas refusing to surrender and would rather the Horde be wiped out is in the benifit of the Horde?
This war is on her, she was the only one that wanted this war despite all the objections to it, she had to manipulate with lies or over-exggrations to Saurfang to get him alone involved. And later once she realised she wasn’t going to get her victory she wanted she decides to turn it into a genocidal one by torching Teldrassil.
Zakkaru would disagree with you here, and regardless what happened to challenging Garrosh to a fight instead of wasting all the Horde soldiers with a civil war?
And like I said before it was a loyalty test, not a flat out an assassination attempt.
So, the problem is that he is sercetly doing it rather than openly do it? You would rather him commit fully to do is than have the halfass attempts which is what he is doing now?
They do indeed, but the challenge you would like him to do would be impossible because Sylvanas won’t play by it. That is why Vol’jin didn’t do it to Garrosh.
And lastly, I am just curious. Do you dislike what Baine is doing because it is awful and/or bad writing. Or just something you dislike in general?