I see your point even though I don’t agree with you on this one. I don’t mind grinding at all, in fact it can be rather soothing with the right mindset (and music or a video on a second screen).
I think my history with mmorpgs is what has formed my opinion on grinding; I played some korean ones (Priston Tale for instance). I also grinded my butt off in Diablo 2. So much so that I don’t have ANY interest in ever trying D3.
Now, I wouldn’t want those levels of grind anymore, but I can still appreciate a nice relaxing grinding session. It’s kind of like going to the gym.
There’s nothing ‘to believe’. The evidence is there, clear as day.
Don’t be so insulted when you’re called out on bad behaviour mate.
Learn from it, and become a better person. It’s awesome.
No, that’s your opinion. My gear progression is great for instance (although a bit on the fast side imo, but that’s not due to TF but rather Warfronts and such).
You can certainly think that. I hated it. All I did basically for 2 expansions was mine ore, do quests and dailies and… that was it. It was bad. Really, really bad.
There’s a reason why TBC is ranked as the worst expansion for me. At least Wrath had some cool zones, a nice theme and some story. But the progression was horrible.
This is absolutely correct and I can completely see your point of view, even if I do do these harder modes. It isn’t terribly compelling to do the same thing over and over again while intentionally making it harder for yourself. It would be a lot more fun if there was a constant stream of new challenges with new rewards that aren’t just “HIGHER NUMBERS LOL”.
Either all unique content is super easy and seen very soon, or it’s annoyingly timegated, or some content can only be seen through more progress - in a very small amount of cases a lot more progress. You cannot have no barriers to entry with easy completion of all unique and rewarding content in the game through a system like LFR and LFD, and a game full of stuff you haven’t done yet, at the same time, unless more content is produced than you could ever consume, which is impossible for a game being developed as it is played for hundreds of hours every month by the average player.
I am one of those people proposing an alternative, but if I recall correctly there is no alternative because you (definitely a plural “you”) don’t want there to be one. I hate to dig this up but it’s only a few weeks ago where I had the argument of the century (yes, argument. Not discussion. There was no useful discussion in that) with you and Punyelf about the removal of LFR and LFD and the addition of progressively harder open world and dungeon content, instead of scaling it all to the same (low) difficulty. That’s the only alternative that can exist to the status quo.
But you don’t want that alternative, and you’ll scream my bloody face off to avoid it. This is why people have given up discussing this topic. Emotions run hot and any critical analysis of the issue is thrown by the wayside, making communication and discussion about he topic completely impossible. And now you’re arguing in favour of titanforging because you can’t think up any alternative, because you’ve rejected literally any possible alternative that could ever be proposed. But you’re right that titanforging is a consequence, and not a cause, of these problems, so there’s that.
And yes, I’m going to blame YOU, personally, though not just you, for this problem, and it isn’t going to go away until we all, as a community, put down the hatchet and reexamine the content structure of this game and the place of progressively harder content again.
I believe effort should = reward for the appropriate content that you do. I don’t like the system an LFR only player shouldn’t under any circumstance beable to loot the same item as a high rated pvper or a mythic raider, no matter how rare it might be.
I miss the days when you knew what your best in slot was and you felt great when it finally dropped, now days, you feel like crap because it doesn’t have a higher ilvl, socket or tertairy stats.
I’m not insulted at all, I just think your bigotry is quite hilarious. As you’ve stated, your opinion, which is ok, but mine is wrong, of course. XD. Unfortunately, there are alot of people who play this game to actually enjoy effort for progression rather than just wait to be handed gear on a plate , plus RNG to the standard it is in the game is not progression. Different factors come in as well as purely tf/wf but I stand by my opinion, as you do yours. Insulting people because they don’t agree with you is not going to win you over any favours, thats the lesson that needs to be learnt o/
Yes lets all gang up on the little gnome and think pixels are the be all and end all of gaming .
Get a grip some of you .I dont agree on TF/WF but you lot are just being obtuse towards Tahra.
Aye I definitely rejected that, because the last thing I want is difficulty. It’s fine if there’s a choice to do harder content, but imo that harder difficulty should never, ever be baseline. That is an essential difference between the two of us; you seek challenge and difficulty, I seek relaxation and simple fun. Both give us the same thing; immersion. That immersion just works different for us both.
So we can never agree in that regard, we’re just too different.
But…
I have always argued in favour of TF. For a long time now.
And it’s not up to me to find an alternative, because I’m fine with how TF is.
I can understand that some people have problems with it and therefor have suggested things like removing the socket proc and limiting the amount of ilvl a TF can give.
This is simply not true mate. I am very open to alternatives for TF. Even for LFR.
But GOOD alternatives (more difficulty is the opposite of that for me).
Well I am totally willing to bury the hatchet, as long as that ‘place’ is not baseline, but rather an option;. But like I said; I don’t feel it’s my place to come up with an alternative, because I’m not the one who has a problem with TF. But stuff like TF upgrade tokens and whatnot, all sound fine to me. As long as I can keep my character progression and am not forced into any higher difficulty content, I’m fine with whatever.
Then you can’t have content that you haven’t done yet, and then you need titanforging to keep you grinding for literally no reward other than some small number gains that will be gone as soon as it would become useful to you.
That’s what it comes down to. No further conversation makes sense until you understand that, in order for things to not be timegated and not be done nearly instantly, they have to be hard enough that you need better equipment from currently easy content to make the new content progressively easier until you can take it on. If you don’t like content that’s hard skill-wise, just collect more gear until it isn’t hard. You’d have that option.
That’s it. Case closed. There’s nothing more to it. Saying it’s a bad idea because you don’t like hard stuff is like saying LFR is a bad idea because it’s hard to a level 10 character. It’s a complete nonsense but any attempt to communicate this point is impossible because of the way you, and many others on this board, conduct themselves.
There’s none of that. What makes you think that? Or do you just like insulting people?
I haven’t stated that. Why do you insist on lying?
I only have a problem with ‘opinions’ being made to look or sound like ‘facts’.
Such a biased reply. Again; why the need to insult?
I don’t want to be handed gear. I want to play for it. Earn it. Just not by doing the same type of content you enjoy.
It actually is. You get an upgrade > progression. How that upgrade is delivered is inconsequential.
You may not LIKE the method of delivery, but that doesn’t mean it’s not progression.
Definition of progression
1 : a sequence of numbers in which each term is related to its predecessor by a uniform law
2a : the action or process of [progressing] : [ADVANCE]
That is still happening. It’s less linear, sure. But it’s progression.
So, what you actually want is rigid, linear progression, right?
I agree and having read the previous parts of your reply, this last part is very hypocritical, my friend.
No mate. That is YOUR way of thinking. Not mine.
I like getting TF’s because it does 2 main things:
It gives me a gear upgrade. Which is fun. It’s a pillar of RPGs. I like that part of RPGs. If I reach a certain level where I no longer receive upgrades, the game becomes stale and boring.
It allows me to do the content I enjoy in a faster and or easier way. Also something I like and enjoy.
The prospect of those 2 things are reasons to keep playing. Not enough reason of course if the content itself isn’t FUN, but that’s a whole other conversation.
RIght. And this kind of reply is the EXACT KIND OF EXAMPLE of that?
Yeah.
I think you need to understand something; You are not right and ‘We’ are not wrong. ‘We’ are not right and you are not wrong. You have an opinion. We have an opinion. We don’t have to ‘understand your way of playing the game’ simply because it means nothing to us. ‘We’ think differently. We are wired differently. And somehow you think you can tell ‘us’ that we ‘have to’ accept YOUR WAY of playing the game the way YOU like it. Come on man. That’s not how things work.
There’s this thing called ‘compromise’, but you setting the rules is NOT that.
There is no right or wrong. Just opinions. However no matter how many times people call for the removal of TF/WF, it’s here to stay because the Devs like it.
So other than expressing my hatred for the system, there is little we can do about it.
This, combined with making sure they know the reason we don’t p(l)ay is because of their ridiculous systems, is the most powerful form of pressure we have at our disposal. But even people that are playing speaking their mind, like Puny and Ishayu and many others in this thread, is very helpful. In the end, if there is enough pressure against a bad idea, they will cave in. Remember “you think you do but you don’t”?
No, it’s not a way of thinking. The point at which the game has no more content progression is a matter of fact.
That point is currently LFR, and LFR means it has to be trivial, because if it isn’t, a random group of strangers will not try to work together to overcome it - they’ll stay disorganised and blame one another.
These are statements of absolute fact. There is no opinion whatsoever in the above. It’s not about “how you see the game” or a “subjective experience” or anything of the sort.
I’m not asking you to make a compromise. I’m asking you to recognise a set of facts and THEN we can talk about a compromise.
Unfortunately, any compromise with you seems to involve “I wanna do literally all content in the game and not do anything hard” which is not a compromise I am willing to engage in, because that’s where we are already and it sucks. THAT is an opinion, however. By your standards, even a mage tower is too much, apparently, so **** that.
There is right and wrong and nobody cares if the developers like it or not, it is the players’ taste that matters. The right opinion and philosophy is - blanace > excitment. If you can’t balance your content, because of the exciting factor of Titanforgining, you should scrap the Titanforging. However and I can’t believe I’m saying this, the little Gnome is right in one regard. Player’s mentality towards Titanforging is wrong on several cases.
1st: Item level means very little. There are better upgrades in a lot of cases than raw 15 ilvl, especially on Rings, but also on Bracers and Back. The gnome and I both agree that random sockets in these cases are a bigger problem.
2nd: Warforging on weapons. This is way worse than any Titanforge. 10ilv on a weapon is retarded “random” upgrade that can lead to 5%+ power spike.
3rd: Personal Loot amplifies Titanforge to a ridiculous extend. Titanforge being such a problem right now, despite that the proc % is vastly lower than Legion, because of PL restrictions. Forced PL makes Titanforging cancer.
I honestly prefer Legion’s version of TF rather than BFA’s version. In my opinion, sockets should get removed, warforging on weapons should get removed and Titanforge’s cap should be - Mythic base item level in order for PL to actually not be as canserious as it is. Blizzard can not leave this mess like that.
I don’t mind higher Titanforge chance, as long as the ilvl cap is Mythic base item level.
They are not facts. I don’t understand why you think they are.
They are YOUR opinion on these things. They are not universal truths.
Let me explain:
This thing you’re saying here depends on many assumptions and certain definitions of things. If you have different ones, like I do, that statement makes no sense whatsoever. That is my whole point; I don’t think like you do.
I think I know what you’re saying; but I don’t agree with it.
Do you mean: Progression of the content itself stops with LFR because you view raiding as the pinnacle of the game’s content? Well, I don’t agree with that. So no, for me content progression does NOT stop there. There are things that I value much more, things you might not even count as ‘content progression’ tbh, than raiding.
The second part of your statement about LFR having to be trivial, yes, I agree on that. Not because of the biased views you have on it, but sure yes; it needs to be trivial. So we agree on something. Yay.
And I disagree with that. It doesn’t suck. It’s wonderful.
Just the content itself is lacking atm, which is a shame. But the way I can virtually see and experience all unique content in the game is great. If you disagree, then we are done yes. We will never find a compromise for that because you thinking other players are not entitled to, for instance, experience all of the storyline elements the game has to offer, does not sit well with me at all. It’s elitist to the max. Imo.
“I wanna do literally all content in the game and not do anything hard”
This is not true. I want to do all the content that contains story. If there’s an extra boss in your mythic raid, I don’t care (if that boss isn’t linked to some extra super special cinematic for instance anyway). I also don’t care about PvP content. There’s more content that I don’t feel I HAVE to do, so your statement is, like so many these days, hyperbole.
For me personally yeah I didn’t enjoy it. I did the BM one, just because. But I didn’t bother with any other spec or class. But that doesn’t mean I mind such content being in the game; it’s content that can be done by choice. As long as that sort of content doesn’t gate any story or vital progression then I’m fine with it.
Short answer; I’m fine with hard content in the game as a choice. Never, ever, ever do I want to be forced into it (like Siege of Boralus in 8.0).
But, this whole argument is not about TF, which this thread is about. So shall we shelve this one and stick to the topic at hand?
It is completely off topic. But Siege is the one dungeon that is the most boring stupid non interesting dungeon. No fun at all.
And next to that, as the healer, the last boss is incredibly toxic by having to dispel 2 players at the same time (who you have to search actively where they are so they do not kill others when I am dispelling), while having LoS problems everywhere.
And the packs before the 3rd boss are insane…
No, if I can I will never do siege again. I only need it to be done on +10 in time for the achievement.
![:sunglasses:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/sunglasses.png?v=6" ":sunglasses:")
![:kissing_heart:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/kissing_heart.png?v=6" ":kissing_heart:")