If you are struggling with mana, then you’re not playing correctly. Stop spamming vivify 24/7, learn how to use Chi-ji properly, don’t use Yu’lon without an innervate unless you’re super okay on mana.
Take chi burst, mana tea, chi ji and rising mist and learn how to play the spec instead of whining about how “mana starved” you are. Yes, we can oom ourselves very quickly and enveloping mist/vivify could do with a tiny reduction to the mana cost but that’s literally it. Our spec is more than fine outside of top 10 raiding.
It is absolutely true that Shaman is insane right now and doesn’t use mana, but that does not mean mistweaver is bad.
People are whining about how MW “brings nothing” but here’s a quick list of what MW is all about.
Monk debuff, provoke, transcendence for resetting boss fights, paralyze, an aoe stun, leg sweep, tigers lust, ring of peace, most mobile and tanky healer, high damage without putting in a lot of effort and the highest HPS healing cooldown in the game (yu’lon). We also have the highest sustained single target healing, do good sustained AoE healing and have some pretty good spot healing.
tl;dr: If you whine about Mistweaver in PvE then you’re just not that good at the spec.
Are we the best healer? no. Are we the worst? no. Does it matter outside of top 10 guilds? No.
don’t use Yu’lon without an innervate unless you’re super okay on mana
Ah yes it’s in such a great state that you’re recommending not using one of the pillar cooldowns of the class unless you’re “super okay” on mana or someone else covers up your mana cost
I couldn’t make up something this silly if i wanted to
Why on earth should any spec be unviable for “top 10” progression to begin with?
You also completely ignored how much worse it is compared to other healers for M+
jesus christ i’ll never understand people like you who feel this necessity to defend the status quo of a game’s broken balance/design because it’s tied to your bizarre sense of identity and ego
I mean you can use yu’lons with just mana tea and be fine - you just can’t spam envm for the full duration. Yes, yu’lon costs a lot of mana but it’s also the highest healing cooldown in the game by far. Nothing comes close to a good yu’lon in terms of raw healing. What other healer can pull 20-30k HPS for 25 seconds straight with a single CD?
Not to mention you could just take chi’ji instead and casts enveloping mist for basically nothing.
MW is super underestimated, and even though it’s not used for world first progression, it’s not a bad spec. Several guilds use it for top 100 pushing, and it absolutely owns on some fights.
With what spell are we supposed to heal in M+? Also how do you defend a cooldown where you have to get carried by another class so it’s worth it.
All this while you have other healers with almost zero mana issues, pumping the same if not more healing, actual cooldowns and good damage. Playing mistweaver is like playing wow in hardmode.
I don’t understand how you look at hps has a measure to compare healers when we cant even use hower base healing spells/mastery without running out of mana.
anti magic zone or aura mastery can do just as much, and they don’t rely on other classes boosting you.
why can paladins push 7k+ while being at 80% mana 5 minutes into the fight? if the purpose of mana is to prevent healers from spamming their strongest abilities, why is it that it prevents monks from using their basic rotation while other classes are stacking haste so they can spam faster without running oom?
Not sure what to tell you. Vivify and EnvM are more than fine in m+…
I also never used HPS as a way to compare healers. Not sure where you at getting that from. All I said was that Yu’lon is the highest HPS cooldown in the game.
I am fine on mana in raids, and while shaman is indeed insane and doesn’t use much mana, I pull comparable healing to my co-healers while doing more damage and taking less damage as long as I don’t stand in bad.
MW is a lot better now than it was in BFA, and people are still whining because they can’t play the class.
AMZ/AM saves the raid 500k+ damage taken? where are you getting this from? Can you show me a log where the 20% DR from a single AM reduces the raid damage taken by 500k?
The reason you are ooming is because you are being inefficient with your spells. You are not meant to spam vivify and spot heal everyone you see. Instead, try using rising mist, chi burst, mana tea and chi’ji properly before complaining about mana.
MW has a much higher skill-cap now than in BFA, and as a result you get much more punished by playing poorly compared to in BFA. We also don’t have claw+lucid dreams anymore, so ofc you’re going to feel more strapped for mana compared to before.
you simply multiplied your peak 25k hps by 20s and also ignored your other heals. on denathrius blood price a few paladins could mitigate that much with AM. I’m saying a few because you’re not a single character either. without druids pumping innervate to you, you couldn’t do this without wasting all your mana.
notice nobody is complaining here, only stating facts. vivify is the center of our class as it’s buffed by mastery, essence font, renewing mist and soothing mist. considering it gives you less healing/mana even with 5 renewing up than a single essence font cast means there’s no reason to cast it at all (as shown by the logs where top healers have literally 0 casts)
MW is weak when analyzed alone as well as compared to other healers. I can see from your logs that you’re the “top gun” among your guild’s healers (btw give props to your raid group, they’re insanely good at avoiding damage in general). you’re a great player but to put it frankly, you’d be better with a shaman or priest.
Vivify is actually stronger than EF when you have 4 Renewing Mists out (with Tear of Morning) and 5 without.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that vivify is the center of our class. Vivify has never been particularly strong in a raid setting compared to EF/RJW. For a really long time, our class has mainly been focusing on Essence Font and sustained raid healing via RJW. Now, there are exceptions to this in Castle Nathria on fights like Stone Legion Generals, where Vivify is actually really good because all you do on that fight is spot heal (which MW is also very good at).
Why are you looking at “top logs” when it comes to healers? Top logs are an extremely bad way to judge how good individual healer specs are, and they don’t really show anything useful. It is extremely easy to get good healer logs provided your raid team lets you do so. I’m not sure I understand that argument, sorry.
As for the Yu’lon comment; You absolutely can do it without “wasting mana”. Blood price doesn’t do enough damage to maintain such high HPS for the full duration, but spamming enveloping mist for a full mana tea and extended those enveloping mists with rising mist? That’s a ton of healing for a pretty fair mana cost. The only time I think you really need innervate, is when you have to spam for the full duration, like on Mythic Sludgefist to make sure your raid is topped during the charge>roar combo.
And no, I did not “multiply by peak hps by 20 seconds”. I have logs and examples where I do 20k hps for the full duration with 40% overhealing and without using enveloping mists outside of the first half of Yu’lon. It really is just a crazy strong cooldown.
Yes, disc and shaman are better than MW right now. However, healer balance is closer than it has been for many many years and MW is not in bad place at all. MW is not a meta/fotm class like Disc and Shaman, but it is by no means a bad spec. People are complaining so much about “mana costs” when in reality it’s just them playing the spec incorrectly.
BDGG, a top 10 guild, is using a Mistweaver for DENATHRIUS progress and you guys are still acting like MW is complete garbage. The only thing it’s not viable for, is World FIRST prog.
Simply lucky you were thrown 2x innervates; whereas in the majority of occassions the Druids would use it either on themselves or others. That’s a full 20 seconds casting spells that don’t cost mana AND even with all that you ended up with the least amount of mana left.
Mana left at the end of the encounter - Shriekwing Mythic 16-12: Shaman: 46.72% Priest: 17.95% Druid: 13.85% You: 6.93%
Mana left at the end of the encounter - Shriekwing Mythic 27-12: Shaman 1: 86.82% Shaman 2: 50.66% Priest: 13.31% You: 9.47%
Mana left at the end of the encounter - Shriekwing Mythic 30-12: Shaman: 77.97% Priest: 70.47% Druid: 29.42% You: 6.94%
In each encounter you had the least mana left at the end, only on the 27th you outhealed the rest and that was with just a margin of 200hps between you and the 2nd healer that died about 3 minutes into the fight. The other 2 healers died around the 5 minute mark one of which that wasn’t ressed.
Is Mistweaver viable? Yes. Is it fun gameplay to be constantly gatekeeping your mana? No.
Even if you outheal others in fights due to circumstances or them being lesser skilled players there is simply not as much headroom to carry long duration fights as mana will definitely be a major hurdle where the Mistweaver will be the first to go down under.
The only reason top 100 guilds can carry Mistweavers along is because their entire lineup of players consists of people that consistently take less damage, do more damage and more healing.
If your entire lineup takes more damage, does less damage and healing, the mana issues Mistweaver monks has will become more apparent, no matter how good a player you are.
Healer classes that have 10-60% more mana left at the end of the encounter would be able to pump out extra healing if that last part went iffier, whereas you would be AFK-waiting for your mana to regenerate after you used up all your other options (innervates/mana tea/mana potions/mana totem).
What class would be more useful if your guild did less damage and the fight took 30-60 seconds longer? The class with 6-10% mana left or the one with 13-50% mana left?
I consider myself as a mid-low level player, just coming back for SL. I didn’t play BfA.
I would see those raw datas with another PoV :
using mana tea feels quite normal to me, since it’s just part of our toolkit. It’s just supposed to be used
mana potion, normal too, we are at Mythic lvl
mana tide totem is supposed to be used too since it’s part of shaman toolkit
The double innervate on the same player looks « shocking » but :
Innervate is always mentionned as a major Druid spell, a major reason for why everyone needs a Druid in his Raid.
If nobody needs innervate then why don’t we take 4 shaman in our healers team ?
this game was, is, and hopefully will ever be, about Synergy. Complementarity and no competition (within the raid).
I mostly read threads which are all about comparison.
Here the RL must probably think : Yu’lon is strong => we need Yu’lon => its mana cost is high => we need an innervate
Or he needs a Hmonk for some reason, however the logic would remain the same. Or he just think « we have a Druid, so we have an innervate, powerful spell, then we have tu use it in a synergy with another strong cooldown, what are the strongs healers cooldown ?». Anyway. Hope I’m understandable.
I’ve always been told (as a caster, back in the very far days) that finishing an encounter with (about) 20%+ mana means either my class is op, or I did something wrong/didn’t do my best. I don’t know if this is always true nowadays but when I see a shaman with 60% mana left, and a monk with 10%-, with pretty close results, I can’t help thinking one is playing hard mode and another one on easy mode - assuming that in Mythic Raid everybody obviously knows how to play.
You do know that ending the fight with as little mana left as possible is the play, right?
And you can’t seriously be using Mythic shriekwing as a way to evaluate how strong a healer is. Not to mention the first 3 fights in that raid really don’t favor Mistweaver at all. Did you ignore every other point I’ve made? Like the one where a top 7 guild is using a Mistweaver for MYTHIC Denathrius progress? As for innervate… Balance druids can’t use it on themselves, and it is far more beneficial for a Resto druid to use innervate on literally any other healer than themselves.
If you have a lot of mana left at the end of an encounter, than you are playing incorrectly or the fight simply does not have enough damage for you to use it all.
I don’t understand why people who only raid Heroic and never step foot in Mythic talk about how viable a class is in content they don’t participate in. Why are you talking about the viability in a class in content that you don’t play?
Yes it is absolutely true that I am oom at the end of the fight, but that is not a bad thing. Mistweavers can VERY easily oom themselves if you just spam your spells… but that does not make it the norm for every fight.
Tell me, what does anyone gain by having 40% mana left at the end of the fight?
Yes, but a Mistweaver Monk needs to babysit mana and relies heavily on others to solve his apparent problems with mana. If you want synergy and a good range of utility, you would pick: Priest/Shaman/Paladin/Druid or have 2 of one of the classes.
Those classes have more headroom as they don’t run out of mana as quickly as Mistweavers do, if a raid takes more damage than it should and/or the fight takes longer than expected the Mistweaver Monk is the first to go OOM and a healer that can’t heal for any period of time is useless.
Your point is moot just by this statement alone, read what I stated in my previous comment: The only reason top 100 guilds can carry Mistweavers along is because their entire lineup of players consists of people that consistently take less damage, do more damage and more healing.
You can’t be seriously comparing your 2/10M guild to a current top 10 guild in terms of skill, playstyle and progression rate.
For the majority of guilds like yours are simply not near that level of play, for these guilds a Mistweaver is simply not the most optimal choice, as there’s other classes that can do the same (or better) with more synergy in terms of utility, more HPS in general and less problems with mana.
Yet on the 3 times you’ve done Shriekwing Mythic you were outhealed by 3 people on one of them while you had higher ilvl than them, on the other one you were outhealed by one guy and didn’t do much more healing than the other two.
The only time you outhealed the other healers is when the other 3 healers died during the fight. In all the fights they had (way) more mana left than you and either straightout outhealed you or were very close to your result with enough mana left to pump out more if the fight were to take longer than it should whereas your fuel tank would be empty.
I got 12/12M Ny’alotha on my name as Mistweaver Monk, so another point you made that is completely moot and has no added value to this discussion except for being an ad hominem. Childish.
If that person did near/same/more healing as you did, that person would have more headroom than you have. What would’ve happened if the fight took 30-60 seconds longer? You could maybe pump out one more heal whereas the other healers can still pump out a bunch of heals and secure the kill because of it.
If you’re already having to go through all these lengths with mana on “easy fights”, what about the fights that have way higher damage patterns? Why take a healer class that is consistently having problems with mana rather than a class that can do the same/more healing + has more/better utility and doesn’t have to babysit mana?
Example:
Highest ilvl healer
Lowest healing
Lowest mana left
Mana left at the end: Shaman: 46.72% Priest: 17.95% Druid: 13.85% You: 6.93%
EDIT:
Let’s take it a step further: The fight took 376 sec (6 minutes and 13 seconds) Healing casts: Shaman: 123 casts (0,33 casts per second) - 43,37 HPS per cast Priest: 139 casts (0,37 casts per second) - 36,35 HPS per cast Druid: 191 casts (0,51 casts per second) - 26,10 HPS per cast You: 150 casts (0,40 casts per second) - 32,00 HPS per cast NOTE:A bunch of these “casts” are click-and-forget AOE/Chain type healing or HOTS.
So you pulled more casts off than two of the healers (11 and 27 casts more) and still were outhealed, had less mana left and even had less mana left than a Druid that did 41 more casts than you did.
Again, Innervate is supposed to be used. Used on someone, and this « someone » , in SL, is us … does it matter that much ? Is this just an ego issue or something ?
If it’s not necessary then why mention it as a great spell, a great Druid advantage. Those Druids we envy so much.
If it’s not necessary then let’s remove it. And let’s see what’s next.
Taking more damage or not dealing dps enough, sure, but
if a raid is taking more damage, then it is absolutely necessary to take a look on others issues than the Monks mana. Moreover, would be a shaman (taking the place of the Monk) able to up a whole raid taking too much damage ? I’m not sure (at all).
a longer fight also means more cooldowns back (sorry for my poor English)
NB : As I healer I don’t consider I’m here to cover other’s players mistakes or lack of DPS. Of course I do it. Obviously I have to and obviously I know mistakes happen, since I do some, myself. No problem. But this shouldn’t be my job. That’s how a RL should think, I guess (I hope)
I know Monks are weaker than Shamans and Druids. I already knew it before subbing SL, was told by my friends, etc. I know we have to be careful with our mana, we almost ever were. And so on.
You (and many others) really don’t have to spend so much energy in pointing out again and again our weaknesses and make us remember how much the others are stronger. No one would deny it, it’s a fact.
I’m not a try-harder I just like my monk. I’m an average player playing an average class. I’m not stubborn aswell. I like my Monk and I want to play it at his best (well, tbh, more like my best hehe).
Pointing out weaknesses I already know doesn’t help me to improve my gameplay, and improving my gameplay is what I need the most.
Actually we all need that - and this is what this forum should be about.
And again you are looking at Mythic Shriekwing while also missing every other point I have ever made.
It is absolutely true that MW is not the best healer. Some other healers are better and that is not a secret. But does that mean the spec isn’t viable? That the spec is bad? If anyone genuinely thinks so then I don’t know what to say.
Most of the people in here are acting like Mistweaver is useless and “not viable” when you can get by with literally any healer comp outside of top guilds.
As for Shriekwing, you are taking ONE boss and basing everything around that.
Are you taking into account that I was not using the best HPS talents for that fight, but instead opted to use Yu’lon in case we messed up the lantern? What about the fact that I did not actually use Yu’lon on that fight because it was not needed? (mistake on my part) Are you taking into account that I did three times as much damage as our shaman and druid? Are you even considering that you don’t need to spam heal 24/7 because it would just overheal like crazy? Are you taking into account that if the other healers spammed more, we would all sit on 50% overhealing? Imagine basing a class’s effectiveness on their amount of casts kekw
i dont give a damn about any of your points, the fact is mistweaver is bottom when it comes to representation in high rated arenas, mythic raid progression and high mythic+ keys, you going around calling people bad because they deservedly ask for buffs makes you sound like the biggest smartass i’ve ever seen. I guess us mortals can’t complain unless we’re in a top10 guild
Long story short : representations datas are, at least partially, biased.
Many players did read all that stuff about Monks before the release. Including which class picking to be more efficient / playing more easily / looking as an « aware player », (yes it happens) etc.
Everybody, obviously including very good players.
And among these very good players, many picked another class to be more efficient. To gain some % here and here. It’s about to progress, being the first (or at least trying to progress as fast as possible).
Great players were 1st when they played monks when Monks were at their best. Now they’re playing Shaman since Shaman is at its best. etc. And they are still first.
Who is still playing Monks then ? Mostly, just good, or average, players.
Great players playing a great class will be on top.
Good, or average players, playing an average class, won’t be on top.
What about great players playing an average class ? They are so few.
The only thing representations rankings are saying, is « most of the best players don’t play Monk ». I don’t really feel concerned and 90% of us wouldn’t have to.
I am calling people bad for saying MW is unviable, because that is literally what people are saying. And well, if people can’t recognize that the spec does not actually need buffs then they are indeed bad at the game.
Yes, MW is very unrepresented but that is literally always the case. Our spec has never been particularly popular.
“Сome on guys, be stronger! I’m sure we can win this race on this bike. You don’t need to look at the fact that the enemy is on the Ferrari, you better look at my legs, how strong they are. I almost catch up with the opponent, because I can pedal correctly, but I can not finish the race not last, because I get tired quickly and have to slow down.
But does that mean the bike isn’t viable? That the transport is bad?”
