And yet not every Torghast runner reaches that point on the final boss, some of them consistently.
Why is that? Are they unlucky every single time? Are you lucky every single time?
AGain, I will emphasise, just so we’re absolutely 100% clear.
I never said Torghast takes “massive skill”.
I never said luck was not a factor
I never said gear was not a factor
I never said skill was the determining factor
I simply said, skill comes into it somewhere alongside everything else, and all you have done in response is link clips of you pwning it followed by “much skills” commentary, which isn’t engaging with what i’m saying at all- because it only works if you assume your experience in these clips is the experience of every single torghast runner to date and I don’t need to tell you how incredibly bizarre it would be for you to assume that.
I mean let’s take yourself, given you like linking your clips. Have you ever failed a layer 8 run when at 180 ilevel or higher (or lower, if you like)?
Yes, several times. Especially in twisting corridors. I’d just abandon the run if I didn’t have a set of specific powers by floor 13 because there was no way I’d kill the end boss without those powers.
The difference is that some people continue pushing for the last floor even if they can’t kill the boss instead of abandoning the run.
Torghast plays a lot like Slay the spires to me, if I don’t get the right stuff, I just abandon the run and restart.
Right, so what you’re actually demonstrating here, is that you took some choices about your play, and strategy, in approaching the challenges, to ensure success.
So you made play decisions.
That presumbely not all players make.
So- exactly what i’ve been arguing?
Remember: I never said high skills are required, I was merely pointing to the idea that different play moves and decisions by different players impact their experience of Torghast, which I believe you have quite literally just confirmed. You said it yourself, many players will throw themselves at a boss they can’t kill, whilst you made a different decision and then have a better run.
Whether you like it or not, that is YOU taking a decision, which then affects your success in Torghast. As said earlier, when i’m talking about skill in torghast i’m not talking about “leet skills” or whatever, but largely the ability to maximise the opportunities of the run and to recognise the limitations of the opportunities given.
And you, quitting a run to reset, is exactly that, and that is something not all players do, which you yourself recognise when you say “some players will throw themselves at a boss only to die”.
It’s more about experience. I’ve done so many runs in torghast that I know when I can or can not beat the boss. Inexperienced players won’t know when it’s not possible for them to kill the boss. I beat layer 8 on the beta already and knew from the very start on live realms what to expect.
That’s the problem I can’t see the glimmers. So I won’t be able to do those. Hopefully skipping those won’t fail a run those if I do pretty much everything else.
Call it experience, call it skill, call it what you like.
All I argued is that this “personable aspect” of the player, that sits outside their luck and their gear, has some limited part in their overall success in torg, and after arguing with me about it, you now seem to agree with me it does have some impact, except for what you’re calling it.
Okay then.
Skill or experience is a mere exercise in semantics. I could say “I have great skill with a hammer” or you could say “you have a lot of experience wielding a hammer” fundementally they do not mean incredibly different things do they not, in both cases we’re suggesting I know how to use a hammer properly, given skill is usually implied to arise from practice/refinement which is tied to experience, and experience is usually taken as an indication of having likely skills in the thing one is experienced with.
E.G when someone says “I am an experienced cook” most people do not interpret that to mean “I am someone who has cooked a lot but isn’t very good”, most people interpret it to mean the person thus has some degree of skill (as arising from experience) of being a cook.
I don’t call it skill for a simple reason: Making it about skill implies the player is bad if they can’t beat it. Rather than that they’re lacking experience with it compared to someone like me, who beat layer 8 on the beta already and did so several times before the game even went live.
Doesn’t ruin anything. You can still complete the floor and receive full soul ash. You won’t get a high score, is all.
You need a high score once to unlock the higher layer, but you can do a speedrun after that, or wait for bloodlust on every pull if you so wish, and you’ll get the full rewards, and won’t be kicked out.
No, it doesn’t. If it was making you hurry up, then the speedrun would be more efficient with regards to score, which it isn’t. You can also completely ignore it, as the timer is not display anywhere anyway.
Yes, if you spend a full day to clear one wing, you’re not going to get a 4-star score to unlock the next layer. Whooptie-doo, I think that’s fair. Do a 4-star run 4 times to unlock layer 12, and for every other run, on every alt you may have, you can take all the damn time you wish.
The par timer is so very lenient that if you don’t go AFK for 15 minutes mid-run, you’ll make it, as long as you’re not doing layer 12 in 168 gear or something like that.
As said in previous post, this is mere grounds for personal disagreement and your view (to me) is not wrong, it is valid as your opinion, but I disagree.
Skill and experience are frequently associated terms. You having experience of the thing prior, gave you skills regarding it, and that is why you beat it.
I could attend a lecture every day on creative writing, but unless I use the sessions to actually refine my skills, then I won’t become a prolific writer despite my “copious experience of creative writing lectures”.
So where success in something comes as a result of experience it is not down to merely experiencing it, but using the experience of it to develop skills and approaches towards it. Experience is only as valuable in so much as it teaches us things, and this teaching is only so valuable as we use it to change our behaviour. You may not choose to call this “skills” I choose to call it “refining skills”. The ability to reflect on experiences and use them to plan future behaviour, to me, is a skill. In my work I see copious evidence of people whom lack this skill and the results are there for all to see. All things being equal between them and a peer relatively one will see success on a project the other won’t, and it is largely down to one using their past to learn from and inform their future, and other does not change their approach (of course there are other reasons, as I cannot guarantee identical behaviour, but the point is this ability to reflect in this manner and then use it to inform behaviour is widely considered a form of skill in many, many professional arenas)
If you disagree that is totally fine.
PS Thanks for keeping things civil despite the ping pong
How are they wasting time with the Torghast changes?
They removed the death count, you get full rewards as long as you finish, whatever way you want to. The only thing you need a high score for is to unlock higher layers, and while doing a 4-star run will be slower than a speedrun, it is by no means a waste of time.
With the new Torghast score system, everyone benefits:
Those who want to speedrun, will do a few 4-score runs to unlock layer 12, then will continue speedrunning. Hardly a dent in their efficiency.
Those who want to clear all, will be able to do so, and get higher score than speedrunners, making their unlock all the much easier, since they were doing similar clears anyway.
Those who struggled, will no longer have a death counter lingering over their head, and can take all the time they need to clear a wing.
Those who want to wait for bloodlust before every pack, can do so. They won’t make a good score, but they’ll be able to finish the wing and reap full rewards.
Those who want to go AFK at the start/end of each floor, will be able to. Even if some random mob kills you, no big deal, there’s no death timer.
I’m waiting to see how it works in practice, I didn’t test on PTR otherwise I’m sick of all the content before we get it. But generally speaking timers suck.
You don’t see the timer, for one, so that much less pressure. And it is quite lenient. Unless you’re very undergeared, or spend half the run AFK, or die a billion times, you’ll make the par time. It’s like 20-30 minutes depending on difficulty and layout, that’s quite a lot, especially if we also consider that they removed a whole floor (you only have 5 now: 2 floors, broker, floor, broker + boss).
Going over the par time doesn’t mean you immediately failed 4-star either: you’ll get less score for time, but you can make up for it with empowered bonus for example, or scoring some of the extra bonuses, etc.
It’s hard to fail the timer. It’s main purpose is to prevent people from waiting for BL before every pull to get a perfect score. That’s all it does, really. And failing it isn’t like failing a wing in 9.0: you still get all the soul ash, as long as you finish. You just won’t unlock the next layer. As such, once you have the next layer unlocked, unless you’re aiming for a Flawless (5-star) run, you can completely ignore the score, the timer, and everything, and just clear it however you want to, and reap the rewards.
