Honestly i thought this was a myth or complete exaggeration when i heard ppl complain about toxicity towards healers/tanks in dungeons, M+.
I am not good at priest and thought to level it up just to complete some old metas and get Legion class mount. Joining in to classic dungeon and due to Blizzard faulty scaling in dmg/healing output group almost wiped on a Dire Maul boss. And what do i hear? “You suck! Learn to play!” Honestly, i could not believe this.
You ppl cry all the time that there are too few healers/tanks in ques, but you treat other players this way? Even if he is new to this class - even worse: because you lose all the courage to test something new.
And how can you play elite card in TW dungeon? Do you really need to feed your ego by treating this way other players?
Seriously, what is wrong with ppl?
Shame
Praise be to Metzen, another has seen the light.
Now please help out by reporting these ingrates and making our community a better place again.
If it was around the level your character portrait is at (77) it may not even be because you don’t know the class well, there have been more healers who complained about their healing being inadequate around that level. Probably a combination of heals being rather small compared to health pools and low ilvl because of fast leveling with TW and too few gear upgrades. The combination apparently makes it feel painful and very difficult to just fill the healthbars.
Either way, yes the behaviour sucks when it happens. You’re not supposed to learn anywhere it seems, just to know how it works already wherever you go. I don’t know if the xp is any good but you could perhaps try Korrak’s Revenge or epic bg’s. They’re great imho for learning healing, and you usually deal with far less yelling at you 
If you are a new tank / healer, I can only say what I’ve said to others… Join a community / guild. No it’s not because I see you “too bad” to play LFG, it’s the opposite.
LFG will never learn. In a community, you can actually find people that allow you to learn, try new things, heck even make mistakes because we are human after all.
I like “No Pressure” as a community, keys are run often, specific rules, and 99/100 times, people are super chill.
My joy has significantly increased after joining that community as a healer main. And I even pushed 3.2k previous seasons, so I have had my fair share of LFG experience 
Tanking / healing is fun, if you are in the correct setting. Hope to see you in game!
You must have/grow thick asf skin to tank or heal pugs.
I only run PuG M+ and completely “ignore” the chat. Unless its the healer calling for a MB I’m not responding. Or if someone actually bring up useful notes/anything important. Some people explode and/or leave but that is so rare (and tbh kinda fun to watch them have a meltdown- toxic IK but years of pugging has damaged me).
Life is so much easier that way
TLDR; ignore chat but keep an eye out for important messages.
it is better to do dragonflight dungeons while levelling and then tww ones. i do timewalking dungeons when i am atleast lvl 78 on my healer
Made only horrible experience there. 9/10 runs will be worse than pugging.
But then I was like “meh maybe I am biased, I will give it one more shot before posting here”.
Well… we were sitting 20 minutes in the group and disbanded before starting because not being able to find one more player.
High keys are basically dead.
Nobody knows. Nobody even knows what one’s performance is based on in TW anyways. One run you beat everything by looking at it, the next round it feels like hitting a brick wall with wet noodles.
Just report the ones who actually verbally attack you.
It gets better with time, your skin will grow layers that dont get penetrated at all.
Keep on Keeping on.
dear OP you need to learn this :
ignore them, really.
ignore them and report people who insult you.
Without consequences its easy for people to be who they really are.
i swear most of the outcry are M+ related
Worse in what sense?
If you’re there to push keys, most likely. Why? Because even in their info page, they state that the community is not a push community or “an alternative to LFG”.
So when speaking of how people behave? My experience still stands as people are usually super chill and friendly.
In LFG I am lucky if I can even get a reply to my “Hello! :D”
People are silent, when finished they just go “gg” and leave.
You do know, you are allowed to also search outside if everyone agrees right?
again would disagree. Depends of course what you see as high keys.
In pretty much every sense. I was doing Ara Kara 7 or something. Tank was literally pulling as little mobs as possible. I mean literally 1-2 if it was possible. We of course didn’t time it. It’s probably even mathematically impossible with this kind of pools. (ngl I didn’t do the maths here)
Forming a group can be even more annoying due to reduced player pool and the rule that you are not allowed to invite a non-community-member.
Now you should be thinking… well but they surely are more open minded than the pug community and will listen to advice, especially from people with more xp. Right? No.
I understand there are people learning. That’s absolutely fine but why exactly not learn with low keys? I mean, taking the tank as example, you go a +7 and ruin the run for everyone with those pulls while literally being 100% hp at all times? Why? Why would you do that? If you put that little effort and don’t care about anyone’s time, why do you even join a community? You obviously don’t respect anything or anyone. Why not putting a little bit of effort and look up a route? Or have a few test runs in +2 or +4 or something?
Idk what chill means to you but if I were to speak openly, that’s everything else than chill. That’s literally not giving a f about anyone and trying to get boosted with the least effort possible. And in my book it’s not friendly to waste someone’s time because I choose to be an entitled douche and refuse to put in the bare minimum of effort while playing in a group.
That’s mostly because people spam the chat with their addons because they don’t set the messages on whisper. So people turn off the chats. Can’t really blame them.
On the other hand, I met people, like you I guess, who value this “hello” way too much. I even got once kicked out of a group for not saying hello. (the group was not full btw) The fun part was that I had a AMD GPU and a freeze (due to their crap drivers) for around 2 minutes. How friendly, right? At least he said hello before he kicked me 
Yes, people barely talk because you get reported for pretty much everything nowadays.
No I don’t. Nor do the people do it. The key holder and the one who made the group just said “well I don’t have too much time sry bb”. While not communicating anything for those 20 minutes.
Wdym disagree? You can literally look it up on discord lol.
High keys is +12 and higher. If that’s not dead then idk what is.
Again, if you read what the community is about, you wouldn’t feel it as a bad experience here. But it seems you saw it as an alternative to LFG to push keys. Not the intention of the community
This is just false. I would suggest you read the community rules. Clearly states you are allowed to if the group accepts
I have the exact opposite experience. People are willing to, and do seek advice. Some can’t execute on it, that’s a different thing.
But I was in LFG yesterday +8 City, and the tank was pulling more than he could handle and didn’t dispel affix nor used defensives.
So that just shows, what you’re complaining about is not a “No Pressure” issue… It’s a general issue bound to happen anywhere.
Again… I think your intentions with joining No Pressure is or was different than why the community was created. Would urge you to read up on the info / rules to see if they align with what you’re looking for.
In this case, OP seems to be a new healer… Exactly to learn, and I suggested the community, where you’re now coming in trying to say the community isn’t good because people are bad and the +12 keys are dead… Do you see the disconnect of the thread and what I suggested and what you’re discrediting?
Again and again… You simply did not align your own expectations with what No Pressure is created for. I can repeat the; “It is not a push community” but you seem to still dislike the community for not being one.
It’s not about valuing the “Hello” way too much… It’s about interacting with people… If I wanted to play with bots I would just que follower dungeons. If you can’t even have the courtesy to say “hello” or greet someone you’re about to do content with then I don’t get why you would play an MMORPG.
Yeah… The “people” in this case are the ones flaming others and using every bad word known to man, and when get silenced use the “omg I can’t believe I got banned for simply saying ____!”… No one just get reported for being friendly, and if you do, no consequence happens
So if you have that fear, that probably says more about you than anything else.
Again, had it plenty of times. I’ve had plenty groups where the group formed and we just found a tank from LFG. Pretty smooth if I should say so.
I would say high keys are +10s. That is literally the highest key that gives rewards. Anything upwards is just rio. And +10s are pretty alive.
And inb4 you come with some weird argument as to why +10’s are not “high”, you probably only say that because you have done +11s… I could then say why +12s when people are doing +18s?
Only thing we can go by, is that its a minority of players that do +12s. Blizzard sets their last reward structure on +10. So yeah. I would disagree. +10s in my experience are being run.
And add to this, that a lot of people are taking a break before next patch, with HC classic etc. coming out, I would say the community is still striving fine
To sum it up; Look at the OP and what I wrote, and then look at your critique… There is a big misalignment here.
Dungeons have always been a toxic place for healers and tanks. Tanks however can be just as toxic when they pull huge groups then complain when the heals struggle to keep up. I have healed since WOTLK and i have had many cases of toxic behavior i also used to love tanking on my pala i used to find it good fun but after the introduction of M+ i stopped as it for me was far to stressful. Dps can be incredibly harsh and down right rude as many have no idea how to move out of goo and are just blinkered to machanics because they are obsessed with the meters. I find higher level m+ more relaxing as a healer because most times the group does what it needs to do in respect to interruptions and no standing like a ned in stuff that hurts.
Doing a +7 in time is “pushing keys”?
I think you have a completely different understanding for “pushing keys”.
Right now I did a +8 CoT. I offered the people to answer any questions they have. The shaman asked when to use the poison totem, I told him. Did he do it? No. Did he dispell affix for himself or with the totem? No. But that’s fine. I mean it’s truly not hard but it’s ok. I would call it “pug level” even tho the bottom level of pugging.
First boss, no BL. I typed BL in chat. I typed hero. We didn’t get it. Ok fine… can kinda happen, I guess?
Second boss, 2 people die in the frontals. Yes, in the frontal. Not once did I ever see anyone die into it. One guy died even twice. He then asked what killed him because he somehow didn’t see it? Twice.
I won’t mention interrupt fails and lack of defensives usage. That’s fine, I can heal 2 mil hps at several packs. We can also call it “pug level”.
We ended with this damage, which is also fine, even tho I never seen anyone doing 600k dps in a +8, even the “boosted” people. And I have hundreds of pugged runs.
https://imgur.com/eF38bJf
I think it’s not required to say that we almost didn’t make it in time. Now I am an experienced player who could make up for the mistakes and knew where to expect fails, even tho dying at the second boss in frontal was even new to me. But this run is not an exception, that’s the norm.
If I was a “new” player or learning, this community would have made me quit WoW for sure. Pugs might be not “friendly” and has its own issues but the quality of gameplay is A LOT better and I honestly how no idea how that’s even possible.
I mean you can say it’s false, I am telling you what literally happened. Even today.
I don’t even mind poor execution but I appreciate when people at least try. But that’s not the case. They don’t listen and don’t try. Every run I had is more like I am boosting entitled people for free.
Just the run I mentioned… I mean I literally offered help with everything and asked to ask whatever they want before we start. BL at the first boss? Even typed twice in the chat mid fight… that’s already too much to ask? That’s hard to execute? I mean…
Just had the same in the NP community, except with much worse fails and the tank didn’t pull much
No, I had hundreds of pug run. But not hundreds of NP runs, I admit that. But I can say, without exaggerating, that I didn’t have a single good run with the NP community. Not one.
Ok tell me if my expectations were wrong, this is what I expected:
I wanted chill people, who don’t tilt if a fail happens but at the same time try their best to complete a run in time and communicate if they have a suggestions (an improvement) on something or if they are not sure about something and want to improve themselves.
Am I really that wrong for expecting this?
I understand what you are trying to say but you completely ignore reality. How is a new healer supposed to learn anything when the community people doing +8 runs without knowing the basics and not even using defensives or interrupting properly. This is gonna be pure hell for any new healer. I can’t even imagine what’s going on in +2 or +4 runs after what I’ve seen in +8s and +10s…
You keep saying that but at no point did I expect a pushing community? You answer my comment with a false assumption. This is not how it works.
Ngl I find it ironic how you make a false assumption about my expectations but then you expect conversations in content where it’s about time ^^
You have places in a MMORPG to have nice chats and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that but do you truly think a M+ is the right environment for that? Really?
This is pure crap. Just today doing a NW +10 with pugs, the tank was constantly failing, turning the cleave right into the group. Several times. At the third wipe I said “mate can you watch out for the cleave and not turn them too much because you cleave the group?”
The run was already hell but I stayed because I don’t wanna waste people’s time. His response was “st-f-u and just heal”. Obviously knowing my value I am not gonna tolerate this kind of behavior and I told him “excuse me? How about you do your job properly and then we are all happy?” His response to that was “I do your mom”.
Now obviously I could waste my time on this one, risk a ban and give him some “fun” responses but I chose to leave. I then got a behavior warning.
People on forums have such a weird perceptions of how reports and bans work in WoW that I sometimes have to question if people actually play the game at all. It’s crazy delusional. It’s theory vs reality.
That’s a great assumption… what for tho?
Well you can of course think that. But 10s are not high nor difficulty. Actually, even according to NP description: Here, you can sign up for the hardest content we have to offer, high mythic keys…
The consider high basically +11 and higher but I argue there is no difference between 10 and 11, therefore high keys start for me at 12.
There are simply difficulty differences.
+9 is not different than +8 but +10 is. While +11 is not different than +10 yet +12 is. It’s just a fact and everyone who played these levels also knows it.
In time is pushing it. Completing it is a different thing
Let me remind you of YOUR comment:
So stick to your words and don’t blame them now right?
Again, can’t really relate. I geared and cleared most of my healers through that community. Even as dps. Finished and farmed 10s, 4-6 and 7-9
Not really when this is the case in pugs:
1 wipe in a +8 and people just leave xD So pretending as a new player it is a better experience when you can’t even complete the dungeon is just laughable.
I don’t care what happened… The above is just false… Its not what “I say” You are saying something that just isn’t true.
- There may be a time where finding the last addition to your group takes too long (over 10 minutes waiting for a fellow No Pressure member). If your entire group agrees this is the only time you may look for another person in Group Finder*
So saying that you have to disband cus rules say you can’t is not true. I have multiple times found people outside of the community too, because people want to go. So they tend to agree or drop out themselves
Maybe for some people it is? Thats what I mean… You have an expectation that keys should be timed and people should be able to execute your strats and helping hands… Reality is, some people can’t. Thats why they have communities like No Pressure. They can die over and over, and learn even if it takes them 10000 times. THATS the idea behind the community.
Yes, can it for experienced players feel like a drag? Maybe. But I’ve had boosted people do 0 things in LFG too. Thats again not something No Pressure related. If you feel the quality is that much better in LFG then go do LFG?
I wrote it a few times already, No Pressure is not an alternative for LFG. You treating it as such, is on you.
Difference is, in NP it’s what the community is there for You seem to still not get it.
Maybe because:
This is your standard. If you expect every key to be timed, NP is not for you. And that is okay? No one is forcing you there. But reality is, NP does offer a safer place to learn, because regardless of how much you mess up, people tend to be friendly even when they call it off… Then there is of course people like you, that expect things to be timed, because you seem to not understand the NP philosophy and apparantly
Like this literally just shows, NP is not for you xD
“but if I were to speak openly, that’s everything else than chill” you tell me? Is that really how you see yourself? YOU are not the chill person you are looking for. You expect people to perform at a certain level.
And yes. Because as I have said multiple times, NP is not a pushing community.
“The European community for World of Warcraft players that are looking for a welcoming and friendly environment to do all kinds of content without the pressures of meta builds, damage logs, raider io scores and the like” read carefully “damage logs, raider io scores AND THE LIKE”… There should NOT be pressure to time stuff and do everything correct… Its literally just to do content… I.e… Completing it.
Again, your reality is not what I experience. And I have done my fair share of NoP runs… From +2 to +11s no issues on all 3 roles, different classes and different specs
Not really… You made it clear you expected keys to be TIMED… Pushing keys literally means timing them… Like come on… Instead of claiming I call out false things, maybe stop doing it yourself, and just accept your expectations do not align with NoP?
Because of this. If you literally fear that you’re gonna be punished for speaking, you probably have a reason… Otherwise why would you fear it? I never said you did. I just said IF… If you aren’t fearing it, then why take it to heart?
But yet you still won’t accept that you aren’t aligned with their view? xD Like holy damn that was gold…
“Why are you saying I don’t align with NoP???”
“They view highest as 10 but in my world it starts at 12!”
“Why are you saying I don’t align with NoP???” Like you can’t make this up xD
Again the golden words… For experienced people it wont be… Just like people doing 18s wont think +12s are “high keys”… That doesn’t mean 10s aren’t high? xD
Top 1% is doing +12s across the board… 1%… And you still want to argue 10s are not “high keys”… Like this just makes me think of:
So what was the consequence? For my knowledge a warning doesn’t do anything? Enlighten me where my message is “pure crap” so far you haven’t disproved anything, but prove me right
The fact that what I wrote actually happend by you just made my day really
Pushing keys means you actually push as high as you can, most people speak here of high keys.
If you want to use your own logic, NP has the option called “time”, which then means all your pushing comments made no sense from the start. Unless you somehow can logically explain why NP offers this option but is at the same time the wrong community to time keys.
You make no sense. You compare bananas with apples. We had a chat in the start too?
But besides that, we both can’t know if his chat was disabled or not. What we both know that it’s not too much asked to use BL at the first boss…
Even tho this happens, it’s not the “competitive” part of M+ pugs. It’s regular TW experience, which is btw mainly played by casuals who rarely even come into +10 range.
Even tho I am not saying it’s good behavior, you should never forget that words are not everything. You should always have on your mind how many people with poor gameplay the guy might have suffered before.
Now I could say, like you, I don’t relate. But I would be obviously lying. Yet this kind of scenario maybe happens once in 100 dungeons. From my experience. But if I had to mention all the bad runs with NP… it’s far more than that. I never though so much about leaving a dungeon at all, until I played with NP people. You need to let that sink in.
This is what the bot spams:
Heya everyone! Just a reminder that you cannot invite non-members to your No Pressure groups! For the full rule, please check server-rules.
So I explained to you what I experienced. While it is true that the rule has (at the very end) the mention that you can invite a random if ALL agree, how many people are even aware of that? As I told you, from my experience nobody was aware of it so far.
So… no. I did not say anything that’s false. In fact it IS the rule that you are not allowed to invite randoms. It’s a plain fact. But there is an exception BUT obviously one person can block the entire group from that. What’s next? Kick the guy? Drama? Reports?.. you see the difference between a rule and an exception, right?
I said we disbanded because the guy after 20 minutes basically left. I mentioned the rule just on the side…
Really? If that’s already too hard, what kind of mechanic do you see them being able to realistically execute in a +7 or +8 or whatever? Name me one mechanics that’s easier to execute than pressing BL… lol^^ now you trolling.
Because it literally says “timed” when they look for group? Why exactly is my expectation wrong then? Obviously I do expect people to know the bare minimum if their goal is to time it and not “learn” the basics, which they should have learned at lower keys or even while leveling?
And why don’t they just join the learning or completing version or lower keys? Why is this somehow such an absurd idea but dying a billion times in “higher” key is completely fine? Where is the logic here?
And since I played both, I reported my experience. And even during the posts I decided to join a few runs and it was just literally proven again… so it’s not a coincidence at this point.
That’s exactly what I am doing. I play more pugs because the gameplay quality there is simply better. Which is sad. You should think if you communicate with people, you can achieve more, better, easier.
Actually my standards are much higher and I lowered them by a lot when joining NP. Knowingly. But the question is: Why do you apply double standards all the time?
Why should I not expect people to try their best if their goal is to time the dungeon, yet it is ok for the people to join “timed” dungeons and not “completion” when they clearly need to learn? Why am I in the wrong but they somehow magically in the right? This makes no sense whatsoever.
Wow… imagine literally ignoring the whole core point of the comment and quoting just this. It tells me that there is literally nothing you can say in this regard because you clearly understand my expectations are healthy and make sense.
You can repeat it a billion times, but it will not make more sense. You just make this pushing stuff up. Look, if pushing means completing the dungeon in time, then why do you have this option if apparently the community is not made for people who want to time their keys???
You have literally several options and for a good reason yet the option “time” is somehow… idk? like?? Nobody expects a guarantee to time the dungeon but people to try their best. And don’t come with this “maybe he can’t do better” non sense because if someone is “THAT bad” he is obviously in the learning phase and has a different option to choose from.
Yet I was able randomly to join a dungeon mid our conversation and the run has proven my experience once again. Just a coincidence?
Now I can’t tell how many pug runs you had this season but I highly doubt you had as many as me.
I hope I explained it clear enough why your assumption remains false. Just because you choose to ignore that NP has a “time” option, it doesn’t mean nobody wants to complete their keys in time.
I literally gave you an example, from today.
This makes no sense. I explained it to you. Logically. Yet you just keep saying that I am not aligned with NP view while you yourself keep ignoring everything that NP offers (or says) when it does not align with your own view? It makes no sense.
I gave you literally a logical reasoning with mathematical facts behind it lol… meanwhile NP does NOT view +10 as a high key themselves, you literally have channel categories and +10s are not in the “high key category”…
I am truly just thinking the same…
Did you do a +12 keys yourself? I think you fail to understand it due to lack of experience.
Do you understand the difference between +8 and +9? I assume you do.
Do you understand the difference between +8 or +9 and +10? I assume you do.
(if you don’t let me know, then I explain)
Now between +10 and +11 there is NO SIGNIFICANT difference. But between 10 (or 11) and +12 there is. You lose the affix, which increases the damage and the healing of the entire group by quite a lot, while the mobs hit much harder and are much tankier. THIS is a significant difference.
This is a mathematical fact, not an opinion.
You think they are there for fun? lol…^^
? What?
“As high as you can” is very person specific. Pushing a key, is timing it
There is a difference between allowing it, and having it be what its made for… They also have options to do keys above +12… That doesn’t mean it’s a place to push keys… They also have the option to invite outside players, but that’s again, not the intention
So no. Not really nonsense… You just need to understand that option =/= as intention.
I actually do… When I said people don’t even say “hi” you excused it with every excuse such as “Oh they might have turned it off yada yada” and then you are mad that people may struggle and tunnel vision and don’t read chat during a boss fight… Make it make sense
Mate… Look at what the thread is about and come back and see if “Competitive M+ pugs” makes sense… Come on now…
Why? I just +2’ed a City of Threads +8 with NP people… Why is YOUR experience worth more than mine?
I just disagree with your experience, yet you want me to buy into yours?
Its even stated in what you copied… Cooooome ooooon xD What I copied in, WAS the full rule.
So clearly you did NOT read the full rule xD
Mate… I literally copied the full rule for you, and still claim that you can¨’t… You must be trolling… 
Please go read the FULL rule…
As you have never tried using that exception I would encourage you to try. And yes, you are allowed to kick people if the rest of the group wants to? It’s not like they can hold a key hostage
Instead of having a biased opinion, maybe just check reality here…
Lol no way you did… Because you literally claimed that you guys werent allowed to invite others so he left… Don’t pretend you knew the rule now xD
Not really. But you have to realize, that some people tunnel vision and forget stuff in heated situations. I even see some newer players panic clicking their KEYBOUND spells, because they get flustered… That is a reality.
Again… Difference between having a goal and not getting there and going “Omg this community sucks and are literally worse players than LFG!!”
Because thats what the community philosophy accepts??? Like why are you SO obsessed trying to impose YOUR views on a community that clearly doesn’t agree with you? Considering there is multiple keys being done pretty frequently as I type, NoP is doing just fine?
If your view was the norm in NoP it would not be as popular as it is… So clearly a lot of people like it?
It’s fine that you don’t but its crazy to me, that you will sit here and defend that YOUR view should be the norm in a community that is pretty clear in their intro and rules about what they stand for.
Well, and I did too… Timed mine pretty good. A few deaths here and there, but laughed em off
Good, then no problem? I just answered OP in MY experience of NoP. And again, considering what you’re writing here, I just don’t think the community is for you. Which again, is okay
This is the thing… You have an idea that they aren’t because YOU are more skilled, you expect people to play at a certain standard and anything below is “boosted” “lazy” “just want to be carried”…
Because you expect them to behave in a certain way, in a place where this expectation should NOT be there.
NoP doesn’t have many requirements to join keys. You know this (if you read the rules) and then going Surprise pikachu face afterwards and blaming others, IS your fault.
“Hey here is a judgement free community, where we don’t look at performance metrics”
“Why am I in the wrong for expecting people to be of a certain standard???”
Don’t you see the flaw in that?
It said enough for the part I needed If you literally can’t speak open because it “won’t be chill”, then maybe just look inwards
This again… You just assume people are failing because they don’t try their best… Keyword TRY… A GOAL is different from ACHIEVEMENT. The GOAL can be to time a key (i.e. push it), doesn’t mean it alpha omega.
Now, if you really know NoP community guidelines, please do tell me why those two options “Timing” and “Completion” is in place? Because there is a pretty core idea behind why they are present in the community and if you have read stuff, you would know this
Anectodal evidence means nothing. I timed some pretty neatly? Oh coincidence?
I answered this a few times. Clearly you haven’t understood why those options are in place
So did I? What can we use it for? Nothing. Good.
It did… If you had read their rules and guidelines you would understand. But you haven’t which is very clear
Oh lord… Do I really need to cut it out in paper for you or can you actually comprehend why when NoP STOPS the channel at 10, that means thats where they CAP dungeons (And give the room for people to find people freely in a separate channel) ?
I did… I currently have Mist, DW and Grim batol on my resto shammy Doing 10-11s on all my other healers… Do tell me though how my lack of experience is the reason.
Oh lordy… Thanks for the lengthy explanation. This just brings me back to: for someone doing 18s, a +12 wont seem high… Just like you doing +12s aren’t seeing +10 as high… But for casuals, +12 would be extremely high… Thats why, a +10 is still “high key”. There is a difference, one doesn’t cancel the other one out…
Ah I see you couldn’t answer my question, I knew it
You can re-read it. Pretty straight forward.