Another topic requesting to ban TSM addon. I know it has been since the begining of the game but i believe that niw us a good time to reconsider once again what is automated move like ex multiboxing software that is banned and what is not. What do i mean you may ask. The normal way ppl with no tsm need an average of lets say about 1 second from the moment u click an item and post it to AH. For 10 items u need 10 second for that (not same items ofc). There is absolutely NO HUMAN WAY this action be faster like tsm does and be human … Anything faster than a human can do i believe is considered automated. I know tsm doesn’t post them instant but its defenately way way way faster than a human can. And here is my quastion to blizz. What exactly do you consider automated? If it can be done the same action faster than an actual human is it a bot??? I challenge you smart blizz to post in AH 10 items in less than a second like TSM does…
There’s many reasons why TSM is a bit borderline but speeding up the posting process? 
Agreed. TSM delendum est. Here’s something I just posted, giving my reasons.
Just ban or break TSM, and any similar addon function.
I’ve used TSM during my Goblin phase. You can’t do without it, because all the other Goblins are using it too, and it is far too powerful an advantage. So yes, I know it’s wonderful for Goblins. The problem is that it is TOO wonderful.
And it leads to these automated cancel-relist behaviours that do nothing useful for the market, but make the process of selling vastly more of a grind.
If you want a principled reason, it is because PLAYING THE AH IS NOT LIKE PLAYING THE GAME.
In the main game, the rule “one action, one keypress” makes sense because the link fom keypress to action has no complicated logic. The devs insert GCDs, and disallow logic in macros.
If you press Mortal Strike, you get Mortal Strike, not maybe Mortal Strike, maybe Charge, maybe something else, depending on the macro’s reading of the overall situation.
In AH decisions, whan I use TSM in cancelling and listing, I honestly don’t know what TSM is going to do when I press Space of scroll my mouse. It does the reading, recognition, decision depending on parameters, typing, and action far faster than a human can.
Usieng TSM in WoW is like using a computer in Chess. You press one key to make a move, but the computer has done all the calculation without your even having to know what it was.
Agreed, TSM does speed up the posting process - just like a rotation-bot would speed up my damage, or a computer would speed up someone’s chess game, or using a motorcycle would speed up the Tour de France.
The problem is not simply “speeding up the posting process” - Auctionator does that - but that TSM is making independent decisions based on prior programming and data, which should be something that the player does.
P.S.
“a bit borderline”? really? TSM is so far over the border that you couldn’t see it even with a telescope, because of the curve of the earth.
I think 5-6 years ago when it had a learning curve it gave an unfair advantage but nowadays it is so straight forward that it’s comparable to DBM (which no one wants to be banned?) so yes, the functionality is strong but it makes using the auction house infinitely better and more efficient even for those who don’t sit there for 17 hours a day re-listing.
People should get on board with it and realize how good it is for themselves as well rather than try to get it banned.
Thats like saying everyone should use roids because they make you stronger, without acknowledging the downsides.
Yes ruining your body is totally comparable to using the auction house in a video game.
If thats all you got from my post I’m overestimating the average intelligence of people here.
Your posts are usually just snarky so I rarely get anything from them tbh.
As for the downsides of TSM, price checking with the new AH is so easy that it wouldn’t really change much. You’d have slightly more time before getting undercut on high pop servers but dead servers without as much AH traffic would stay the same.
Posting taking a couple extra minutes is more of an inconvenience as well on the new AH
I fail to see any issue with the “automation” of posting. Isn’t it a good thing for those of us wth lots of small items to sell? I wouldn’t bother crafting obscure items that sell once in a blue moon, otherwise. The auction house would have a smaller selection of items for sale.
The cancel scanning is a bit more degenerate in my view - there should be a cooldown per cancel.
From what you say, I assume you use or have used TSM?
How can you possibly downplay the difference between posting, cancelling, relisting, sniping with and without TSM?
The difference is HUGE. With TSM I just hit Space. I don’t have to look at the current price. I don’t have to remember whether that is cheap or overpriced for the item. I don’t have to decide whether to post, ignore, or reset. I don’t have to think at all. There is no time delay.
What you say isn’t true even for a small number of auctions, though I grant if you’re just clearing your bags after a session, it doesn’t take long either way.
But when you are maintaining 100 or more auctions, which you surely are if you’re playing at all seriously, it makes the difference between selling lots and selling nothing on a busy raid night.
I’m not, it is immensely powerful.
If you’re a person trying to sell consumes on a raid night without TSM you’re probably not gonna sell much either way, that’s my point. TSM lets people who camp the auction house all day own several markets, that’s it. Without TSM they’d downscale to a point where price checking is just as easy and other goblins would get in on the non-camped markets. On high pop servers there will never be a shortage of people willing to camp the auction house if it’s worth their time which it will be even without an auction house addon.
The people not using TSM won’t suddenly start selling in any real capacity. The strategy might change up a bit but I think the outcome would be the same. The real losers would be mog sellers really.
I made an analogy. It may not have been the best one but you intentionally went out of your way to ignore the point being made because it doesn’t fit with the side of the argument that you are in favour of. Is that polite or honest behaviour?
The alternative is that you really didn’t get the point of my post at all, in that case my subsequent post was more observation than snark.
I’m not sure I understand you?
I believe that TSM does a lot more than “lets people who camp the auction house all day own several markets”. TSM is not just for the oligarchs of the WoW world. It makes automated trading available for the middle classes as well.
When I was Goblining, I NEVER came anywhere NEAR “camping the AH all day.” Nowhere near.
I used it for
a) automatic fast decisions on crafting, buying, and selling before and after raids, a few hours one night a week, occasionally a second
b) managing ~50-80 items of Transmog stock posted and relisted every day or so
c) crafting stock management, especially Inscription when it had meaning
So I never really deserved the capital G in Goblin. I took the low-hanging fruit and was satisfied with that. I never dominated any markets.
So a very modest AH player. But even that would have been impossible without TSM. I don’t have it today, and I know I couldn’t come close to keeping up now, without it.
Without the power to quickly price & post items, the auction house would lose many niche items since people would not bother posting them. I also assume the less efficient posting process would lead to less competition & higher prices in general. Not good for the average player.
Also regarding fairness - addons are near mandatory in many areas of the game. Isn’t DBM / weak auras near-mandatory in mythic raiding? You’d struggle to be competitive without them. Should we remove these too?
You aren’t comparing apples with apples. TSM makes decisions and automates huge batches of actions in one click. DBM and weakauras provide information.
The vast vast majority of these ban TSM threads are about cancelling & posting so that’s the portion I find most interesting. It’s “automating” which is illegal.
I do agree that crafting with TSM gets into a grey area, but on the other hand, making money on crafting in WoW is not particularly hard even without TSM for the simple reason that the list of things people generally buy is really small. You’re just as likely to get burned trying to profit off of “obscure” things, you have to know your market whether you use TSM or not.
You do get a MASSIVE advantage for when you can maximize profits when the mats are cheap but is that worth banning the addon for? That’s where my DBM comparison comes in, it takes no work and it gives you the answer.
Transmog sellers would definitely be hit the hardest but I don’t think those are the people everyone is complaining about so wasn’t really on my mind.
For the record, I wouldn’t be sad if they ditched the snipe module either.
IMHO, yes. People without it can’t possibly compete with people who are using it - and not just in crafting.
But that’s what you might call “societal impacts”, which is what most people seem to argue about.
My personal main objection to TSM the the principled one, that IT IS BOTTING.
No, it’s not botting by Blizzard’s definition of “one keypress, one action”. But that definition was created to cover combat, where it Works pretty much As Intended ™
For auction house trades that require data and decisions, where those data and decisions can be coded into an addon, that definition doesn’t work. The devs block this kind of conditional logic in combat; they don’t in the AH.
Would be better to restrict the number of scans to some level that can clearly distinguish a bot or a program from a human. Add some withdraw fee to prevent constant relisting maybe even.
Basically if you do 100 scans within a minute or something like this you will get immidiately locked out of AH for some time on your account.
That’s fair.
I respect your position but for me as long as it remains widely accessible to everyone who wants it, I don’t see why it should be outlawed any more than raid tools or m+ tools or pvp tools which also gives those who want it a massive advantage over those who don’t.
The end result is the same even if the functionality is different.
Doesn’t, say, an addon tracking interrupts of enemies in Arena have a bigger and more unfair advantage than TSM?
Given, I’ve never even heard of it myself, I don’t mess around with the auction house a lot, but it sounds like a non-issue.