That’s the point, the views about it varies and there are conflicting points about it.
Plus there was no point in WoW’s history that humans gave up on the land willingly, you cant just claim independence on a whim, where there is conflicting parties involved.
And I would love to see Turalyon taking up that crusade to banish the undead from what he believes to be Human Kingdom.
Night Elves ambushing Orcs in Ashenvale and asking for Horde Blood.
As for irl there are requirements of nations to accept the independence of any region or validity of their claims, otherwise it would be medivial chaos.
“PBUH” - Peace Be Upon Him, it’s kind a jokish way of idolation, I think - I mean I do it on my Mag’har priest, who’s devoted to the god of war ; Hellscream(Pbuh)
hmm, not sure if serious…I wasn’t, when I said I felt guilt or shame in how my favorite faction is written these days, why should I? I didn’t have a hand in it, I just had to endure this same story…again. Horde life is hard life…but I love the Hordes races to much to just go play Alliance.
Zakkaru made such an excellent point regarding this ;
It’s so spot on, if Blizzard really intends to make the Horde the villain faction, by all means, they should drop the pretenses and the charades and we can drop these pointless debates over morality, I mean, you wouldn’t debate morality with me if I played Chaos or Dark Elf in Warhammer, right? Ofcourse you wouldn’t, it’d make no sense, because ofcourse they’d do downright evil stuff, they’re bad baaaad hombres, with out of sane comprehension ulterior motives for doing what they do.
If they want the Horde to not be the villains, and at ‘worst’ some type of anti-heroes(wich I always thought we were going for…but that sure got warped out of nuance), then stop blaming the players for how horrible the faction is portrayed, because they didn’t sign up for that, especially not two times in a row and yes…it’s well due for the pendulum to swing the other way around, it’s not the Night Elves that need some heavy compensation from Blizzard(I mean, sure, I’ll be empathic and give you that they are entitled to some of it) but it’s by far the Horde that deserves some compensation for all the shett they had to be dragged through, and I’m sure we’re not quite through it come Shadowlands from what I’ve seen and heard so far.
Anyway;
Allright for this, as ‘the Gnome’ put it ; ‘Retcon’ the lot of it, not a true quote - Also relay that the derrogatory tem of ‘Cow’ is a grounds for capital punishment- wich comes down to being punted off of a high cliff, should I ever catch him…and as he may or may not know…Tauren are born hunters…have you ever seen a tauren stalk a gnome…ofcourse you haven’t, I’m sure neither has Wimbert, but that’s because tauren are so adept at blending in with their surroundings…
Option 2. : Indeed villainbat the crap out of the Alliance…and then after that, in two expansions, villainbat the crap out of them some more, it’s not very pleasing, but it’s an option.
Option 3: Time skip for a sufficient time/ hard reset, so the whole lithany of crimes from either side is irrelevant and we can start bashing eachothers proverbial skulls in with a clean slate, wich will hopefully not end up as onesided.
But there’s aspects of time skips wich aren’t very fun either, lorewise etc.
Option 4 : Friendship is magic, no really, in this case it’ll have to be to just induce mass amnesia and everyone becomes buddies and we all pve the scripted AI bosses…together…I detest it, but I’m sure it’s only because I’m a problematic individual that likes competitive play and Faction conflict(just not onesided shett, although I guess I may just be out of luck on that part).
Yeah so, thing is, what on earth gave you the idea that the Horde wasn’t already portrayed as a bunch of idiotic sheep?
After the ooh soo dishonorable burning of the tree, not Saurfang, not baine, not anyone else stepped up and told Sylvanas what’s what, I mean clearly no one saw it coming, even our boy Nathanos seemed shocked/ surprised in the Warbringer cinematic.
Then we go do all other stuff, the whole warcampaign capsized on us, the Darkshore cinematic made the Horde look like a bunch of dumb goon teenagers in a cringey horror movie, soooo, yeah? I guess little changes for the Horde in that regard, aside from it being on the defensive for once and perhaps having some legitimate reasons to fight- I mean even that is me downplaying stuff for the sake of it, as the Horde does have legitimite gripes, they just got downplayed and whitewashed/ hardly mentioned again, and if it does get mentioned the one mentioning is problematic and basicly nothing else than a trash mob in some ‘hero story’.
For example invading a culture that lives within the forsts for aeons and and totally dismantle all of their affords with no issues at all being allways on top no matter what, allways having the perfectly right answer, even knowing ways through the forests the people who live there for aeons didn’t know appearently?
But as I siad if you are fine being nightelved aswell, I can agree with you to villianbat the alliance for 3 expansions.
It will just cost you 2 main faction hubs one secondary one and your whole integrity and self esteem. While you also get to do some of these awesome quests like trying to save children burning alive with an objective that is designed to be impossible.
Oh it also cost you several zones aswell, not to forget that.
And after all of that you don’'t of course get to see any sort of consequences beside one character dying or escaping for several times while all the others can act as if nothing ever happened and they never participate.
I have allready argues here that people are mad about Jaina not facing consequences for her deeds. Take this times 10 and we have a deal.
This is how it is for the Alliance players since Cata.
I mean I can understand that Hordeplayers want to see an Alliance character die for their deeds at some point but for that to happen there have to be deeds that are done before and I doubt Horde players will be happy about those, as they will have to be more gross and severe than Dalaran or Muuhh taurjo.
It would be Muuuh Thunderbluff.
Muuh all the Tauren children that were cooked alive and made into burgers while you get a quest to try to safe them but have to fail by design.
Yeah I thought that’s what would mean. In my religion we use it when we refer to Prophets. I didn’t know it was a joke. Not offended or anything, just saying.
The irony here of you posting this, surely isn’t lost on you, is it?
Also, feel free to search my post history, you’ll find that I’m the one guy that has ZERO qualms over Alliance burning down Thunder Bluff and massacring some Tauren(in fact by all means, put to rest the silly idea of Tauren being a race of Alliance friends and pacifist hippies!), I do hope that either the Alliance takes down Baine in the same swoop or atleast the character is changed to be a real leader that cares about what happens to his people…like Tyrande Whisperwind -Since ‘Nightelved’ is now a thing, perhaps she or another big name Alliance character can then get deleted in a book somewhere…you understand, parity and all.
I also hope that the tauren put up atleast as courageous a fight against several factions of the Alliance practically by themselves before help from the Horde arrives and we ultimatly reclaim our territories, give them some cool Solar ritual in which they get empowered by An’she, who’ll finally get recognised as a real WoW deity.
And yes, killing Tauren children and …turning them into food stuffs(how original for someone who’s so against fictional ‘holocaust’ scenarios, surprised there), would go a long way into giving the Alliance the ‘Horde treatment’.
Second, I noticed that you too, are are mixing some gameplay choices for actual lore arguments - I do hope you know as to the why the Alliance had to lose some of it’s territories? (I mean, I’m not one to cry for equality in everything myself, but it seems to be a big deal to you atleast, so it wouldn’t be amiss to recognise it for what it was ; The Horde players simply having less choices of territory to level/ quest in, an oversight that was only corrected later in Cataclysm).
I’m a patient guy though, any ultimate repercussions for the Alliance can wait, this is an MMO after all, I don’t need my dinner and desert served in one go, but you’ll have to hear about it every so often, to make sure you feel adequatly uncomfortable and guilty amongst Tauren questgivers, like Hamuul Runetotem or Muln Earthfuy glaring at you and putting you down for your warcrimes.
And you’ll not get to shove off that blame onto something else and actually have to show some responsibility for your actions - I mean not you, as a player, but your faction, well, for parity, I suppose you as a player will have to put up with it too, only fair, right?
There is no more conflicting parties involved. The ex humans of Lordaeron won the land (their land) and declared suveranity and independence. Even if there are Lordaeronians alive who could claim the land, they would have to do so under the current leadership.
The only one in the Alliance that can claim the throne is Calia and even so is debatable since she’s a Menethil, the same bloodline that massacred the population and destroyed the land. I find it hard to believe the Forsaken would accept her.
On the contrary, the Forsaken built a memorial for Terenas Menethil and did not blame him for his son’s crimes at all. Arthas was the black sheep, not the norm, and the Forsaken know this.
Also Forsaken are once again been forsaken.
Even though for some reason Horde players tend to hate Calia, it doesn’t necessarily mean the NPCs do aswell.
The game is based on feudal monarchys at the end and Lordearons had a Queen before. So them now building a democratic republic sounds a bit far fetched.
Do we have ingame examples that Forsaken or even mor so a majority of them despise the Menethil Familiy? Or even Calia itself? Or is this based on speculations because of Arthas?
There is no examples in game that would point to Forsaken disliking Calia, to my knowledge at least.
But Calia is everything they aren’t. I mean she’s Lightforged come on.
Players don’t hate Calia cuz she’s a Menethil they hate her because she’s just the opposite of the Forsaken culture, she has nothing in common with them. The Forsaken have that evil edge to them and Calia doesn’t. They are pissed and grim and edgy. Calia is the embodiment of goodness and Light. Can you see a marriage going on here? It’s a spit on their lore.
That’s assuming the undead Calia is the real Calia and not some brainwashed abomination of the Light.
I’m not talking about the claim of rights, it’s the conviction of Lordaeron was human kingdom and Humans who used to live there alongside Turalyon would March to the city. The city is abandoned anyway, so if Turalyon gets his army to cleanse the lands I for one would be glad!
Same can be done again?
Not really, when peace is only kept on peace of permchment and opposing sides have active dispute on the regarded land
I know, I meant the NPCs hating on Calia for her being Menethil.
Why some players do I can actually understadn pretty well.
I would be mad aswell when they take away the Forests from NEs or having them settle for no reason away from kalimdor.
I mean I allways nearly puke when Shandris talks about her “human potential” …
People rolled and identified with a certain race for a reason.
I just was curious if there are ingame mentionings that support this.
Personally I find the idea of undead being not lightforged but … away from that scourge blight stuff an interesting concept though I deffiantely understand players don’t want that
Me too! I actually think this is an excellent suggestion and I sincerely(not joking) hope Blizzard will take a note from you and Liira on where to go with the story now.
I think Turalyon making a claim on Lordaeron is not only a perfectly legitimite standpoint for some good #morally grey conflict, such a story could also help to 1. shine a light on the other aspect of the Forsaken that gets ignored lately, their past and heritage, the one thing that reminds them of their former lives - Their Kingdom.
2. This could work well to cement Calia Menethil as a legitimate Horde character, she’ll feel betrayed by Turalyon and the Alliance and will choose to side with her people and her lands of birth in austing the invaders. It could turn her character more grim and bitter as she fights former friends to defend the people she chose to lead.
3. The Alliance will be the agressor, enacting on the right of conquest, which for them is only claiming their homelands(atleast for the living Lordaeronians).
It’d be a good move to salvage some of this narrative.
" So… Terenas Tomb in Lordaeron. Who built that? Was it the Forsaken, or the Silver Hand?"
“The tomb of King Terenas Menethil II was not built by Lordaeron’s current residents or the Silver Hand; the tomb was crafted by the ruined city’s former citizens. Great were the deeds of Lordaeron’s last true king, and his people risked everything to ensure that his memory would not be forgotten.”’
The Forsaken didn’t destroy the memorial though, so I think it’s fair to say they hold no grudge against Terenas for Arthas’ crimes.
You literally acknowledged in your final line that it’s irrelevant who built it, because the Forsaken never even touched it, and it was right at the entrance of their capital.
Yes, I think it’s rather irrelevant. Although you could argue that there’s a difference between building a memorial for someone and not destroying one that’s already there.
This can be done from 2 sides: Worgens from Gilneas and humans from Lordaeron. The Horde wouldn’t have time to defend both flanks, it’s a definite win for Alliance if that happens.
This would clearly make Calia an asset of the Horde and a strong candidate for the Forsaken leadership. I’m up for the challenge.
Although I’ll be honest here, I feel like she is set more to be part of a future evil Light expansion than a successor for Sylvanas.
Blizzard claimed she won’t lead them. Add to that the fact that her resurrection is quite interesting to say the least, I would say the Light meddled with her to prop her into a certain position with a clear purpose, we just don’t know what it is atm.
Now I have a question for you (I want to say that I play Horde just as much as Alliance and was actually a Horde main throughout Cataclysm-Legion): You know how much the story sucked in BfA for the Horde. You fully know it. Why exactly do you now want Alliance players to suffer the exact same thing? Out of spite? Pettiness? “We suffered, so they should suffer as well!” Is that it?
Not to mention that this completely ignores the fact that the Alliance’s storyline is just as bad but for other reasons. Outside of the fact that the humans of Stormwind have suffered far more than any other race from a lore perspective, as their entire culture was dismantled or outright not implemented, and their entire narrative is solely focused on Anduin.
Shouldn’t we as players of all sides and factions not better wish for a better storyline overall?
