Oh yes, completely forgot about Worgen’s own agenda to wage war against remaining forces of Forsaken and finally reclaim Gilneas.
I doubt anyone actually wishes that sort of story upon anyone. But it’s inevitable to lay the question Blunderhoof wrote, when the arguments go along these lines:
When the whole reasoning goes as “The Horde deserves to be villain batted into the mud” and people use the circular logic that leans greatly on said villain batting as the foundation for having the story spiralling into this…, yeah.
People will wonder why should the Horde be the LONE victim of it.
Specially when the word “deserving” gets thrown around.
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Oh…guilt-tripping, are we?
It’s a simple question though, why should the Alliance be exempt? I mean it’s easy for you to go and point your fingers, now isn’t it?
As for the answer, I suppose, if you take into account the other posts in just this thread alone, a part of it comes from ‘schadenfreude’, as Wimbert called it in the past, I mean, it would be, if it’d happen.
But just a part, I don’t actually want the Alliance to be given the same treatment as the Horde -But you can’t deny, that the shett we have to put up with gets downplayed by the other side, and allot, if not consistently.
Oh and yes, definitly the Alliance was shafted too, I don’t recall claiming it wasn’t? From my point of view, that seems to be because of inaction and a general ‘carebearism’ surrounding Anduin and friends and being set to the side so the Horde can duke it out amongst themselves, Wouldn’t ‘ve been perfectly legit for the Alliance to go ; "Okay boys…let’s clean up what’s left’, but alas, Blizzard thinks that the only recourse there would be for the Horde to be instantly deleted, instead of forgetting about their grievances with eachother and teaming up to survive - Would’ve set some status quo too, would’ve made sense, would’ve been one hell of a twist for MoP 2.0.
hmm yeah…kinda sorta, I’ll grant you that they are the Tauren equivalent for the Alliance in that regards, if you don’t mind, I’m not going to dispute that they’ve been basicly turned into the Anduin Wryn hivemind…in fact, I actually made that point before - feel free to look it up.
I also wrote an entire page about how the Tauren were shafted, similar to the complaint you’re posing to me now, I take it you never bothered to read it then?because you know…Baine Bloodhoof is such a boon and all, and him being the focal point is totally not a detriment to Tauren as a whole…
You don’t even need to use meta reasons to explain why Stormwind humans have suffered far more than many other races. The franchise literally starts with the genocide of Stormwind at the hands of the Horde.
I mean we’re talking about a hardcore-night-elf-fanboy here, and any kind of hardcore fanboy can usually be ignored. It’s mostly not worth the time discussing because it results in nothing. Did the Horde deserve another villain batting? Nope. We didn’t need a rehash of Mists of Pandaria.
I personally still believe that the original storyline for BfA was vastly different in the beginning, and Blizzard had to change things up midway through (most likely shortly before Blizzcon) development but not early enough for them to redo or change the Lordaeron-cinematic. Mainly, because the cinematic has such a different tone compared to the ingame events or all other cinematics following it.
I still firmly believe that the Alliance originally was supposed to be the aggressor in the conflict. The whole “Silithus”-incident was already feeling like this with SI:7 being proactive and striking at the Horde without provocation which was a first since before this the Alliance was nearly always only reactive. Not to mention the files about warfronts taking place in Kalimdor (Barrens, Aszhara) and Silvermoon.
And let’s not talk about the fact that N’zoth was horribly tacked on to the whole expansion. Aszhara not so much and she would have appeared in BfA sooner or later.
Not really, but for the most time these discussions boil down to two apes throwing sh** at each other while the zookeeper (Blizzard) laughs at their stupidity.
Both factions want a good storyline. Both factions got completely shafted in BfA. That’s not really hard to understand or accept.
(And it only furthers the idea that factions should be completely removed anyway.)
Ahah…so I’m an ape now?
I thought I was being quite…agreeable… in my posts.
Considering I’m the dirty hordie that needs to feel ashamed and guilty.
That said, I don’t really care what Blizzard laughs at or what not, that would mean they’d read these discussions, and I think that could be a good thing- so yeah, I thought Fythramar had a cool suggestion on “where to what” and as you may or may not have read, I was not opposed to Liira’s either, which was ironic and ott but…why not? Give it a good “why” and “who” and it could work - Although I personnaly prefer the #morallyGrey over the black and white, if Blizzard could actually pull that off.
We also have Stromgarde now.
Yes ofc, all Alliance forces can reach there faster than the Horde can manage from Kalimdor. It’s lost.
I and most Alliance players don’t want this, if a lot of Horde players don’t like to be villains, a lot more Alliance players don’t want either, specially considering that the foundations of the faction to be inspired so much in classic fantasy, many players just want to play as heroes and signed to the faction for this.
Just because a loud minority of Night Elf players are as mad and upset doesn’t mean all the players in the Alliance wanna go in the genocide train.
But, considering how Blizzard likes to recycle this boring faction conflict, it’s very possible they do another Garrosh/Sylvanas but this time he’s Alliance, wow, so different…
You think you do, but you really don’t.
It got stale after Cata and MoP really stretched it thin.
It really wouldn’t because outside of Crowley, we quite literally have no other Gilneas affiliated Worgen who could become racial leaders.
Because we know how bad Blizzard’s writing can be and how it would literally be the Horde treatment but without any of the good things that go along with being Horde.
It would help if you actually made an argument and list those good things, so we can all review how hard done you are for having to play Alliance, so go ahead.
Yesterday I had a chat with friend who was a long time Horde player and BfA broke him.
I’ll quote him :
Seeing how the storyline developed, I hate more than ever the decision of making sylvanas warchief, it was so idiotic. They officiallly turned the Horde into a joke from that point on. I remember Varian’s warning at the end of SoO and after a couple of expansions the Horde is shown doing even worse AND get away with it!
It’s absolutely shameful for the faction, outright embarrassing.I cannot ignore it with a simple “we had no power over it”
in the end the Horde did indeed allow a second Garrosh situation after being burnt with Garrosh himself not long ago
sure, because Blizzard are morons, but that’s still what happened.and at the end of it, going with the council solution. That was the death of the Horde for me, no question.
after what they did with Garrosh, doing what they did is unforgivable
they spitted on the Horde
[And regarding Zandalari] they’re just too good for a too awful Horde.
Just to highlight an example where there are some posters that advocate to punish Horde even more.
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Then what would be your solution to it?
Have the Alliance players again forgive the horde, get over genocide? What is in your opinion a solution that solves both factions?
What is seen as punishment for the Horde or Hordeplayers? Them ackknowledging that they literally followed hitler? Doing reperations? Helping planting trees?
I can understand that point of view but it also seems to ever time completely neglect the Alliance and especially NE point of view who also want things to be fixed rather than “oh ok we have now peace again … everything is forgiven just like that and no one is responsible it seems”.
Like your friend has mentioned it wasn’t just a “we had no power over it” (At least for the Horde as a fictional entity, the players of course didn’t)
So out of a story point of view all of the Horde agreed and followed Sylvanas into WoT and even beyond that.
The turning point should have been Teldrassil itself but it wasn’t they continued even after.
So how could that be fixed without having the Alliance and NE players again have to swollow everthing but this time it was a climax.
I allways read self pity from hordes sides which is from some perspectives understandable, yet I also remember how the same players cheered like schoolchildren on a roadtrip during WoT. (And people KNEW there waht is going to happen in the end, Teldrassils image was released during Blizzcon before)
This is where my sympathy with horde players and their claims end.
A lot of them don’t mourne what the horde has become, but that they in the end again lost and lost a character.
So again, how do you see fixes possible here?
You won’t like it but I already wrote a proposition way back. And my proposition was that N’zoth causes another Cataclysm that makes war impossible to continue on larger scale and makes each sub faction fight for survival.
In essence both faction could be kinda desintegrated and have hard reset.
There are no winners, just loosers.
They were already punished with being dragged through the exact same plot.
And on top of that you want to punish players for something they never signed for and yet were forced to go through AGAIN.
I am not neglecting anyone. The story is screwed beyond any repair.
Horde is essentially dismantled and they’re a walking parody of faction now. They have literally nothing.
so what you would suggest? To remove the playable faction? Destroy a hub? Which one then?
I think that better option would be to simply provide a gain instead of kicking already dead faction. For nelves to get a new home, and for Alliance to get back Gilneas.
Besides, not everything has to be resolved right here and right now. How long Worgen hat to wait to get a proper story since they lost their home?
Sometimes resolution takes time. Maybe once the time passes some better ideas/ propositions come out.
You realise that each player is different? Right? There will always be edgelords, heck even Daelina - Alliance player- was making fun of it, and called nelves “ash elves”. I remember seeing massive outrage, once the warbringer Sylvanas video came out. The massive amount of players were really upset and demoralized by that. Because it’s different to win a city in fair fight, and it’s different to mindlessly kill everyone.
Horde players didn’t want to go the villain path again, MoP was already enough.
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I really empathise with your friend, I don’t necessarily agree on all his points, but the main jist of it definitly echoes my own complaints, however I still have zero interrest in playing Alliance, if that’s Blizzard’s aim.
And about the above post, I think at this point the best solution is just to delete the Night Elves out of the game and retcon their entire existence, following that up to banning all night elf mains for their own wellbeing so they, and all of us, can move on, more than enough elves in Warcraft these days anyway.(s)
I would have just gone with your other plan to villainbat the bluesnot out of it all, but then ‘nonbiased’ posters will then come and call me out on me being an ape that wants schadenfreude /shrug
How much more fight for survival do you want for NEs? I can’t imagine it becoming even more climactic than it has become. So at least in that case it would just be another “and more on top just kick a bit more”.
Though I don’t like a new cataclysm, the last one dind’t work. At some point I would like to see Blizzard BUILDING stuff and not allways destroying stuff like a stupid kid at the beach trampeling on everyones sand castles.
I don’t actally share that view that they have been punished allready. Sorry. But also I don’t want to punish players but the faction. Thus I asked what you and the players would view as “punishment”. Would you see it as punishment for you as a player when Orcs humbly go apologize and help reforesting Ashenvale? For example? Tyring to get absolution? Would you see that as punishment for you as a player, rather than Orcs reflecting themselves and trying out of their own to repair what they have done like Saurfang?
Actually I am not sure.
One part of me would like to see NEs doing vengence, because that is what they should be about what they are. Savages and not puny highelves.
On the other hand I am so fond of everything getting destroyed over and over and I personally don’t want NEs to burn children alive.
So… maybe my personal dream and view would be, but that would of course neglect Horde players point of view:
NEs occupying Orgrimmar, rallying up all of those that are directly responsible for WoT and have them killed. Like some Nurnberger Trials. Then leave, NEs are not about conquest.
The thing is, just rebuilding, and I have allready explained my Idea of a hard reset for it with ressurection and regrowth, it would still have Teldrassil as an every bleeding mark on both factions this wouldn’t fix anything. It would just be another “Alliance have to swollow and Horde have to pretend they were not responsible”.
I try… I really try and I know I am generalizing in that case a lot, but with that topic I can’t help myself. I was so deeply digusted and shocked, so vastly disapointed with representants of said faction during WoT aera that will not change lightly.
What comments I have red really made me puke realizing that these were human beings behind that.
Why was that though? The image of burning Teldrassil and the datamines were out for a year at that point.
The outrage was thus not because Teldrassil was burned but that it was impossibly for Horde players anymore to deny Sylvanas did it out of pure evilness. The weren’t shocked because of this to happen, they were pissed because of the consequences they feared would fall upon Sylvanas. There was no outrage from Horde players during blizzcon when everything was revealed. There was cheering for it. I remember it extremely well. Because on that day Blizzard destroyed my childhood. Everything I grew up with regarding WoW and NEs. And I was so deeply disgusted by human beings playing Horde faction cheering for it over and over. During Blizzcon, during Datamines, during WoT.
So Yes I might be extremely biased and generalizing is of course unfair. But it also is to pretend and claim that Horde players “dind’t do nothing”.
q.e.d
So never claim again you are not some kind of that disgusting type of players. You clearly are as toxic and as disgusting as I have pointed out.
And no I wouldn’t call you an ape. That would be insulting for some really cool animals.
Actually notice the (s) at the end? It stands for Sarcasm -
You want to call people disgusting while you’re the only one making Holocaust and Hitler comparisons over something in a Game.
You then start talking about people’s morals for playing the other faction, claiming we should feel guilt and shame over what happens in a game, beyond their choice or control.
You do this throughout this whole thread, actually culminating in claiming Horde players should face psychological consequences for what happened in the narrative of this game.
You then, ironicly after all your morally superior outrage, make a post adressed to me in which you think the Alliance should burn Thunder Bluff, roast the inhabitants and specificly burn alive and eat their children…
But now you’re oh so outraged at my sarcastic remark to your inane line of posting and I’m disgusting and toxic?
Are you for real? Or just a massive night elf troll poster?
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What does it have to do with it being a game?
What about call of duty, it also is a game.
It is a relativation to say “just a game”. If you cheer for concentration camps within a game, you are are horible person outside of the game. Since you as a person and your views and emotions are not inside the game.
No you should not feel guilty for what the narrative has done. I have never said that, in fact I have ALL the time even explained that I differentiate “horde ingame” and “Horde players”.
You should feel guilty and ashamed if you liked that the narrative was about burning children alive. That is what I say.
Yes it was a comparison! To explain to you the severity of what Alliance and especailyl NE players have had to endure emotinally in this “game” during that time while being mocked and riduculed by HordePLAYERS at the same time.
And no you are not being sarcastic, I have red all you posts here. You try to hide behind it. Your words are clear and your views aswell. You are not here for discussion, for even ackknowledging different views. You are just here to throw out edgy hatefull things like that vailianbatting “the sh.t out of xy”.
Well not everything is about nelves. Everyone had it rough. I just believe that if everyone starts from the same position, it would be somewhat bearable for majority, and make players reach some solidarity.
I warned ya, that you won’t like it. But Hard reset is imo the only option.
Except Saurfang didn’t repair anything. And Anduin helped him which imo was treason to his allies, and something that could’ve at least lead to some interesting internal problem on Alliance.
As for orcs, or any Horde member - Forsaken warfare never fit them. To begin with. What gain would they have from blighted land? They’re living creatures, they need to eat, drink and have some proper conditions to function. Forsaken warfare never made sense for Horde to use, especially in conquest when they intended to use the land that they wanted to take over.
Well, you had a taste of it in Emerald nightmare raid. You had to fight the nelf that was killed during Twilight Sabotage and blamed Tauren for that. She took her wrath on Thunder Bluff.
Well, you won’t please everyone. And I don’t think that regrowing the world tree is a good idea. Maybe the island could be recovered and repurposed. But the new hub should be elsewhere.
I felt like puking each time people tried to justify killing of Frostmane Kids by dwarves (it was their starting quests for years) and assaulting Zul’Farrak just to get the shiny spoils.
Because people believed that it could’ve been third party that is responsible for that, Some Legion remanents, Twilight Hammer, Azshara. People believed that Blizzard wouldn’t be so dumb to put such a thing on Horde.
I don’t know, there are many people - including myself- that never cared for this chick, she rubbed me the wrong way since WotLK and I rage quit from Legion after she replaced Vol’Jin. And killed a chance for nuanced story narrative.
At Blizzacon people cheer on almost everything, and I think that they believed it was done during different circumstances. But I remember how it was on forums, bot US and EU and on Youtube comments. They were not happy.
To be Honest WoT wasn’t so bad from Horde perspective, The idea was that Horde was attacked in Silithus and they needed to counter attack, capture the city and stop the outbreak of total War, (heck we were even told to save the civilians and evacuate them to safety). Until the cinematic kicked in.
And really, at least you got narration that it was disaster, and that they deserve revenge and justice, but what About Amani? To this day they’re treated as villains and cannon fodder, with zero consideration for their plight.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/wow/images/7/7e/Mages_humains_d%C3%A9cha%C3%AEnent_leurs_pouvoirs_sur_les_trolls_Amani.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170319163042&path-prefix=fr
And their iconic leader turned to Raid boss. Because why not, I guess.
Edgelords are everywhere, both on Horde and on Alliance, and you’d be suprsed how many Alliance members mocked Nelves for Teldrassil. This is not faction issue.
I actually marked that as sarcasm on purpose because I suspected you’d be to emotionally triggered to get it without the marker, you can claim whatever you want from there but the rest of it is just you backpedaling and trying to save some credibility…as far as I’m concerned you were obvious from the start and now you just dropped the pretenses of civility.
You were very clear in wanting Horde and Horde players to suffer even more because of a bunch of pixels in a game, the parts where you bite into what ‘some other people wrote’ on ‘some other forum’ and using that to brush the rest of us, just as you are, again, doing right now…says a whole lot more about you then it does about anyone else.
Get a grip, honestly.
And with that I’m done with you.