I’d say it’s very much relevant, because the gear and stats difference is the very point that people complain about. They hate that we outgear them, so they want us gone. You either die a scrub (fresh 120) or live long enough to see yourself become the twink (maxed out 120). However the main point of having a twink is not to outclass others, but to not have to keep buying expansions nor keep up with the end-game grind that never ends. Seriously it’s been well over a decade, some of us are understandably sick of it and use twinks as our mains. And for others it’s just an alt project for when the grind starts to burn them out, something to just jump into at any time and have fun without worrying about whether the char is still up-to-date. Balance and stats difference is a different issue that can be addressed with preset stats templates (like they do in GW2 structured PvP, not the failed method they used in legion). This ‘segregate twinks’ mentality some people seem to have is just going about it backwards.
^ this
Thx for your patience in engaging ppl in discussion on this topic. As a twink I very much appreciate the time you put into this. ![:+1:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/+1.png?v=6" ":+1:")
Honestly if the shock from going to an equal environment to one where they are outclassed is too much then maybe it’s time to do the same with max level pvp as well. When everybody becomes a twink nobody will be. I’ve seen guild wars 2 easily manage to do this in their own structured PvP and it works like a charm. Best thing about that entire game hands down. And if people really want to lord their newly acquired seasonal gear over lower geared players they can just turn on war mode and go hunting in world PvP. The concept of templates in structured pvp is exactly what this game has needed for years, perhaps since the beginning.
As long as this game clings to the outdated method (i.e. the illusory seasonal progression) it currently uses we will continue to have problems like this, and this time it came at the cost of our twinks. For me personally that’s too great a price. if we look beneath the surface of every ‘twinks bad’ arguments and consider what about this game is causing people to complain, it always boils down to the noticable stats difference between these groups (twink vs non-twink) in structured. What everyone takes for granted at max level is considered a serious issue while leveling. Solve that and you take away their reason for complaining about us in the first place. ![:wink:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
I can understand that, and with twinks outside of the regular queue (or with our stats inside instanced PvP being templated as you later mentioned) this becomes not a problem. Heck, I’d quite enjoy raiding with an entire guild of twinks within TBC.
If that were the case, with twinks gone EVERY SINGLE ALT YOU EVER PLAY will be up to date and ready to play in any bracket it is in except the very highest level.
This is feasible, certainly for lower than max level. At max level that’s a separate debate that I might open another thread for, though I’m on the fence so I’ll just be watching it.
The entire point of BGs is to have a good time. It’s probably more efficient to not even queue for them whilst levelling. Certainly if you’re gonna have your time wasted sat in the spawn for 20 minutes whilst a 2/0 flag carrying enemy team of twinks refuses to end.
Then what the heck is the point? If you want to feel like a god, play a singleplayer game with a bunch of mods on and kill everything. Or try Dynasty Warriors, it’s great.
Some other venue where it’s not spoiling the fun of everyone else, in this; our multiplayer game that we all play together.
Oh god yes!
Yet, the only thing people ever do is cry about battlegrounds. That doesn’t sound like a good time to me?
Battlegrounds offer exp because people kept asking for a way to level through PVP many years ago, since they were bored of levelling alts through the same quests over and over.
I’ve had more games like that without twinks than I have with twinks. So really, you’re complaining about issues completely unrelated to twinks, but blaming them for it. Incidently, you’ve been doing that in every post you’ve made in this thread.
The point of twinking varies from person to person. Some players want to feel like gods, some want to see how strong they can make their character, then compete with other people that have made their character that strong.
Some people even twink their characters as a way to “boost” their friends. Higher chance of winning a BG if one of the players is stronger than normal?
But me personally? I made twinks because making them was fun. I’ve always had more fun creating my twinks, customising them and testing the best enchants and consumables. It was a solo project that I could do with just a small amount of help from a friend; I didn’t need a guild or to stick to raid times, I didn’t need to group with randomers, it was just a side project.
Haven’t played that since I was a young teenager. Perhaps I’ll go find my old PS2 later.
Oh please, everything you do is “spoiling” somebody else’s fun. Do you think “maybe i shouldn’t do this?” When you stomp fresh lvl120 in a battleground on your main?
When we had Legion’s awful templates, did you every destroy people and think “maybe my OP class is ruining somebody else’s fun?”
No, you damn well didn’t. Twinking causes no harm. If you dont want to enchant your gear or buy food and potions, then that’s your problem, you have no right to tell other people they they aren’t allowed to because you dont want to.
Matter of opinion,
I don’t feel satisfaction in those fights, it’s arguably a good reason for templates because I’d actually like my opponents to have a chance of beating me.
But in that particular case they’ve chosen to join a BG on a fresh-ding which in the current game is suicide. By your logic every non-twink is signing up to get shafted just for queuing for BGs.
That’s a class balancing issue which is arguably easier to handle when templates are in use.
“If you don’t want to do this set of abnormal things irrelevant to levelling your character then you deserve to have zero fun in Battlegrounds.” - That’s exactly what you’re saying.
If you’re in a separate queue then you can play with like-minded individuals and nobody has to have a bad time.
You guys can have fun doing what you’re doing, and everyone else can have fun playing their alts and PvPing whilst levelling up.
No, it’s not. Look at this forum, it’s people complaining. Join a battleground? It’s people complaining.
It’s always been the same. Some people have fun in battlegrounds, I usually enjoy them; but the reality is that people complain about them all the time; that isn’t a matter of opinion.
We’re going around in circles here. If you want 100% fair fights, MMORPG’s aren’t your thing.
The logic is exactly the same, except there are FAR less twinks than heavily geared main characters. Also, enchanting your levelling toon is MUCH MUCH easier than getting good gear at max level. It’s a 2 minute job, as opposed to farming dungeons and praying for good rolls.
Yet it wasn’t fixed and was actually made worse with templates. So I don’t know where you got the word “arguably” from.
No, what I’m saying is “if you dont want to spend 2 minutes throwing some cheap enchants on your gear, you have no right to cry about the people who do”.
Effort, my dear friend. Just because you don’t want to put any effort in doesn’t mean those that do should be penalised to suit you.
Except for the people who can’t play their character any more because there aren’t any battlegrounds? Twinking is a minority, outside of the 19, 29 and 110 bracket, there aren’t enough twinks to get a BG to pop, let alone to get them all online at the same time.
Repeating yourself doesn’t substitute for a valid argument. No queues - no fun.
And “anti-twinks” still get no fun because something else is going to make them cry anyway. You submit to the whiners and what do you think you get? More whining.
There’s a difference between complaining about general frustrations within a game, which is going to happen in almost any game ever, and complaining about mechanics that make a PvP scenario unwinnable for one player.
My main is an enchanter and absolutely stacked with old-world mats, it’s no effort for me at all. But you can’t be telling me that sticking a set of enchants on my gear is the entirety of twinking.
They did templates poorly. It works in Guild Wars 2. I’m not saying the templates we had are the solution, and templates aren’t the purpose of the thread per se.
But think about it, you’re a developer, you know (for example) that ALL shadow priests in the level 89 bracket do 150 damage per tick with Shadow Word: Pain. Shadow priest is presenting itself as OP in that bracket by spamming SWP on everyone, so you tweak that flat number. That’s gotta be a whole lot easier to balance when you know what their numbers are.
When your enjoyment as the minority is taking away all of the fun of the majority, I think that’s a cost you can basically expect.
If some children are playing catch and one kid takes the ball and prefers to just keep it to himself, the other children aren’t going to want to play with him anymore.
I do agree with you, but as someone rightly pointed out in another thread; minor grievances shouldn’t mean we should let major grievances remain.
There’s no PVP mechanic that makes the game unwinnable. Twinks don’t all talk to each other and decide in unison to join the same faction. If their team has twinks, so does yours.
Depends on the bracket. The gear advantage you get from “BiS” items is around +1 stat per piece, enchants give you anywhere from 5-9. Whilst I’m unsure of the difference with the new age of “rng titanforge” twinks, I’d still wager that enchants and consumables are the strongest.
Remember the old mana oils and wizard oils? You can use one of those at lvl40 and give your weapon +12 versatility. 24 if you’re dual-wielding; you can use things like that on any characters, anybody can.
How about old potions? +25 agility? They’re like 1gold each from the auction house. If you enchant all of your gear and use consumables, you’ll be close to being on par with a BiS twink.
Variable on bracket, since lvl19’s can use lvl50 engineering head pieces, for +20 in their main stats.
Lots of things worked on GW2 that wont work on wow, and vice versa. They’re completely different games and WoW is the better game. WoW at it’s worst is still 10 times more popular than GW at its best.
Except by doing that, you’re looking at a whole number instead of individual numbers. Let’s assume that SW:P is doing most of the damage; all of that damage is spread throughout the entire BG and is just healable dot damage. So you’d be nerfing shadow priests based on irrelevant damage.
Somebody earlier said that a lvl60 twink did more overall damage than their 95 arcane mage. Their problem is the exact one you’ve just hinted at: looking at overall damage instead of relevant damage.
Twinks dont take away the fun of the majority. There’s as few people crying about twinks as there are that play them. The majority of people don’t actually care and would rather Blizzard look at more pressing issues within the game than “somebody’s lowbie is stronger than mine!!!”
That’s the one of the worst anologies I have ever seen. That implies that the ball taker is playing an entirely different game to the other children. The correct anology would be “if one kid is using super awesome sneakers that allow for easier movement, then the other kids will cry that life isn’t fair”.
And as I said to him (still waiting on his response, by the way), he’s got minor and major mixed up.
Somebody enchanting their gear and using consumables isn’t a major grievance. The real issue is people doing nothing with their character and expecting to be on the same level as everybody else.
Whether the overall BG is winnable or not doesn’t dictate the experience of the individual players.
That doesn’t mean other games don’t have features that are good ideas.
The shadow priest example was literally just a random example to make my point regarding flat, consistent figures. If something is over/under-performing at certain brackets it can be tweaked. It wouldn’t just be “damage done” numbers they’d be looking at, developers are smarter than that.
I cannot imagine a single person getting annihilated by someone with god-gear in a levelling BG, entirely due to their gear, and thinking “Yeah that was fun. Good fight, friend!” Look at the constant stream of threads complaining about twinks.
The only people who don’t care are people who don’t BG regularly on alts or who are twinks themselves. And twinks have time and time again presented a callous and frankly hostile attitude towards other players.
My analogy implies a group of people come together to do something collectively where we all have fun, and then one person decides to spoil that because of what THEY want. That’s what this is.
They are on the same level as everyone else, because everyone else is also just levelling. It’s not assumed or required that you should have to max out your character in every single bracket as you level.
You guys are gonna cause more and more people to stop queuing for BGs during levelling. I’m already seeing it happen. And as much as that saddens me, who can blame them?
How ? We aren’t even in the same queues as levellers.
I levelled a Hunter exclusively in BG’s from 33 to 71, in the last week or two. The queue times felt no different to when we had merged queues TBH.
The anti Twink argument revolves around an awful lot of misinformation and old outdated memories of how powerful twinks were when there was only 1 queue. There are outliners to this, mainly in the lower level brackets 19, 29’s especially when compared to a normal leveller.
There’s nothing stopping people adding enchants, gems to gear that will take them, using potions / oils / sharpening stones etc etc except themselves.
I’d love to able to post you a comparison between 2 of my 39’s both Twinks, one in looms and generic items vs one in Twink gear ( not BiS as that’s impossible atm ). But I get Server error 500 when trying to access the character screen.
So for now you’ll have to take my word that the difference in main stats is smaller than you think it is. The main difference is that the twink has optimised secondaries.
Most of the advantages Twinks had were playing in pre-mades and with good comps . But that would be true even if the same players were playing levellers instead of their twinks.
twink not cheat fair game
Are you saying that gear does dictate fun? Because if gear dictates fun for you, you shouldn’t be playing an MMORPG.
No, it means that good ideas from other games wont work with WoW, just as WoW’s good ideas wont work with other games. Can you imagine flying mounts in Runescape? How about having to use runes to cast spells in WoW?
Everything you’ve said is random. So much so that you’ve completely derailed your original point.
Tweaking everything at every bracket would take far too much effort and would need to be redone every time a class is changed. Instead, Blizzard chose to just tackle major issues in low levels (such as Cata’s 80% health shield slams).
As for developers being smart, have you ever read the arena forums? I think they’d disagree. But that’s just another point to my statement that “people complain about everything, not just twinks”.
Those constant “streams” as you say, are NOT the majority of the player base. I’ve been browsing these forums since 2007, if I were to make a rought estimate of people crying about twinks over those 12 years, I’d say they were 1,000 people. 1k people is not a majority; the actual majority of the playerbase dont care about non issues.
And also:
What makes you think that everything is entirely a gear issue? I know of the old “lol twinks are back peddlers that cant play max level” meme, but that’s outright inaccurate. The people I’ve seen that play twinks are definitely above average players, most use their twinks as side projects when max level gameplay gets boring.
The reality is simple; if you’re bad at max level, you’re also bad on a twink.
General statements are fun. And untrue. Most of the player base don’t care, if they did, twink threads would have more than just the same 5 people arguing with each other.
Have you read anybody’s posts in these threads? Want me to quote some for you?
Actually, read every post by Nokiya.
How about that from a different thread? Even in battlegrounds, all the hostility comes from YOUR side of the fense, not mine.
Except it isn’t. Your analogy implies that the “outside” kid is playing a completely different game, rather than using something that gives him/her an advantage at the same game that all the other kids are playing. Which is why you’re wrong.
Twinks aren’t playing a different game to you, they’re playing the exact same game with better equipment; hense the “super awesome sneakers”. The difference is that while a kid would require his/her parents to buy those sneakers for them, you don’t have to. Because in this scenario, it’s on you to put yourself on par with the others.
Improving your gear and maxing it are not the same thing. I gave you examples on how to improve your gear without going to the effort of farming dungeons and the auction house for the best possible gear (the only difference of which, is secondaries).
You guys have been saying that for a decade and a half. Again, twinks are a minority and most people don’t care about them.
And it was never a case of 3 twinks grouping together and destroying an entire battleground. When one team had twinks, so does the other. The last time I played my twink was November, somebody in a battleground cried about a twink that “solo carried my last game and was to strong so there’s no point playing”.
…So I spent the entire game fighting that twink. As for the person complaining about the twink? Want to know what he did in that battleground?
NOTHING. I kept the twink off him, and he still got steamroll’d by non-twinks. Incidently, the people who cry about twinks usually are the worst players in the battleground. After all, why improve when you can just cry, right?
Here you go, I’ve done this just because I could:
2 Level 39 MW monks - One is in the gear I last did a BG in, and the other is in looms and various pieces of gear that are either dungeon items, dungeon satchel items or a BG reward.
The loomed toon is has most of it’s gear enchanted, which is what anyone who wants to level faster should do.
The enchant on it’s weapon is actually better than the twink so that does need to be taken into consideration.
You can’t see spellpower in the armory so the numbers are:
Alliance Monk 312 Spellpower Horde Monk 310 Spellpower ( would be 315 with same enchant )
There are any number of BiS items missing on the Twink due to the gear rng that is 8.1.5 in all brackets, but it’s pretty much as was 1 day into this patch. And therefore a valid comparison of when the queues were merged between the 2 toons.
People are currently abusing a bug in the system to hop in the queue. Separate queues are the exact thing this thread wants. If we don’t have to play with/against twinks they can do what they like.
I’m saying that when a Prot Paladin hits me for 10,000 damage (near 50% of my HP) with a low cooldown AOE ranged instant cast tank interrupt that I don’t consider that fun. That can’t happen without the gear he had.
There’s no real way to know which ideas will or won’t work without trying them. They tried that method of templates and it didn’t work, there are other options.
The shadow priest example was a random class/numbers/spell just used to make a point, the point being that flat, consistent numbers are a whole lot easier for developers to modify to make for a balanced game than something with a massive spectrum. But the purpose of this thread really isn’t an avocation of templates. I myself am on the fence about it. it’s a separate discussion for a separate thread.
“General statements are fun” followed by a general statement… Most of the player base don’t even USE the forums, let alone specifically this one.
The majority of the playerbase are the players I see sat AFK in Battlegrounds because they don’t want their time wasted. The piles upon piles of " has left the battleground." I see on a daily basis. The people joining into a BG just to find themselves in a 4vs10 because people aren’t willing to tolerate getting farmed like wheat and would rather take that 15minute debuff and go do something more enjoyable.
I had time to type part of this reply as I sat borderline AFK in a BG guarding my flag for a free win whilst my twinks caused the majority the enemy team to be unable to leave their GY. They didn’t reach my flag room more than once (right at the very start), so I came out to see why and we had 3 twinks camping the enemy team who had quit respawning whilst the rest of my team were either running unguarded enemy flags, defending our uncontested flag, or /dancing on the centre bridge because they had nothing better to do.
I could go sifting through the threads and post a variety of “casuals just crying about getting rekt go kys scrubs” quotes too but we’d both be wasting time. Any hostility from our side of the fence is near inevitable because we’re on the side of the fence that’s getting shafted.
The purpose of the analogy is to point out the parallel between a selfish child who doesn’t want to play in a way that’s fun for everyone, and a BG twink. Someone who thinks their fun is more important than everyone else’s, which is exactly what this is.
Gotta go away for a while so I’ll check on the thread when I get back. It’s good to have a discussion that’s more than “mad cuz bad” from both sides.
We have separate queues - you are talking about something completely different the ability to beat the BG timer by turning XP off before entering an XP On BG.
The fix is so simple but it’s about Blizzards will to solve it - put the change of XP status on a 48 hour or greater cooldown. Fixes the issue almost completely.
This must be the 110 bracket - which is different to every other bracket - XP locked toons with BfA queue with Legion 110’s by design. It’s always been like that, previous expansion cap has it’s own unique bracket, you have 2 choices - buy BfA or suck it up.
I didn’t buy an expansion past TBC until MoP landed, so my max level 70 leveller was dumped in with fully geared 70 Twinks in every BG, same scenario.
Doesn’t affect me at all as I don’t have a 110 Twink.
That also isn’t a twink exclusive problem. That problem is the jump in gear to the latest expansion, it’s happened with every expansion.
Did you know a lvl85 mid-MoP could use MoP gear and profession items and easily beat entry gear’d lvl90s? How about Cata with the introduction of lvl78 greens that were on-par with ICC25HC gear?
I remember 16k health levellers crying about 40k health levellers who bought a handful of Cata greens.
As for now? You level a character to 110, you level quickly and have a hand full of greens, and perhaps a blue or two. What do you play against? Somebody with BiS Legion gear as well as some BFA items that are on-par with raid items, sometimes better. So it’s basically the same as fresh ding vs max gear. That’s where the gear disparity comes from, every level below that is from enchants.
Take a look at Arleinaa’s characters for differences between twinks and enchanted levellers; there really isn’t much difference at all.
In every other bracket, the gear disparity is nowhere near that high.
There’s lots of ways of knowing, the main way is to pay attention to what the players are doing in the game. GW2’s system simply wouldn’t work in WoW, if it were a better system, GW2 would have more players than WoW, instead of having around 10% of it’s population.
At least my general statement was much more accurate. No doubt you’ve seen all of the “BFA is bad” threads on these forums, threads on reddit and videos on youtube? I think people are much more concerned with the issues raised there than “somebody outgeared my alt”.
No, that’s not what majority means.
I saw just as many in previous expansions where twinks werent a thing.
Again, not a twink problem. This happened without twinks; people get mardy and give up when they start losing. A WSG game while levelling (again, even in previous expansions without twinks) is usually over when one team wins the first team fight and scores. People open up the chat and say something along the lines of “lol u noobs bad”, and then it’s people flaming each other from there.
Yes, you could. I’ve read some myself, none of them are as stupid as Nokiya or the nameless DK alts.
No, you’re not. I’M on the side of the fense that is getting shafted. YOU can still play your characters, I on the other hand, can’t. What use are my lvl59 and 49 twink now, when there’s no battleground queues?
Except your analogy is wrong because it implies that the twink is playing a different game. Fun for everybody is irrelevant, since half of the players are inevitably going to lose. You’ll find that a lot of players cry about something being unfun when they lose.
You mean like the people who demanded that I shouldn’t play my characters because it isn’t fun for them and their “fun” is more important? Goes both ways.
Have fun.
Stop complaining, casuals like you are the reason why this game is what it is now and fun stuff gets removed. I remember the first time i met a twink in a bg back in TBC. He destroyed everyone and i was intrigued and it motivated me. I had no clue back then how he was doing what he did but i still remember it 12 years later like it was yesterday. I ended up getting into pvp and arena and getting multiple glad titles after. But blizzard loves to cater to casuals that want stuff handed to them with a pet on the back. I remember vanilla when everything was unfair, classes were OP compared to others and people were griefing / camping players like a mofo. AND guess what ?? The game was AWESOME compared to what it has been the last 6 years. But hey who am i , just another random scrub on the forum. Stop complaining on forums and play the damn game. Are you sick and tired of twinks destroying your face?? Make a twink yourself and return the F-ing favor. athenelol quote " You’re Pro or you’re NuB , that’s life "
People like Noface seems to forget what RPG means in MMORPG, it means that if your characters have 70 days of played OF COURSE he’s gonna have a better GEAR than a fresh 5 hours leveler… that’s RPG but i can see it’s being busted by fast food game as BFA is today, this game has lost his identity by removing PVP and RAID sets, making warforged and titanforged a thing only because some players can’t afford the time a MMORPG require to have a good character. I don’t know why people do play something they don’t like and blizzard is listening to those ![:face_vomiting:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/face_vomiting.png?v=6" ":face_vomiting:")
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