Tyrande's Darkening (8.1 spoilers)

Well that was Vol’Jin’s thing sadly “Tell not show”. If you really wanted to learn about his actions and background you had to read stories and books that actually gave him some justice. But that was the reason why he was in Orgrimmar in throne room, he was the one who was behind all Horde logistics.
But that doesn’t change the fact that he contributed more than Sylvanas because All his motivations were concerend around Horde wellbeing.

Sylvanas motivations were all centered around her, even edge of the Night shows it, that the moment her purpose ended, she was done even with her forsaken.
She only returned because what was awaing her was worse than undeath, and now she treats everyone likebulwark from damnation.

No, Her actions damaged the Horde. Over 4k soldiers died to her Blight on wrathgate.
In Pit of Saron she wasted Horde troops left and right, and she didn’t even shown any remorse over it
She was even happy that one orc died simply because she didn’t like his speech.
The Wrathgate made Alliance declare War against the Horde.

In Cataclysm she expanded her territories but she did it for herself for her forsaken and to get more bodies to raise. This is also the time where she disobeyed Warchief and did stuff her own way. But it’s NOW when people finally have chance to do the same to her where people thrown tantrum and demanded a choice.

He actions continue to damage the Horde. So No I fail to see how was she helping, just because some of her actions were synchronising with Horde’s objectives doesn’t make out of her “fighter for the Horde”.
Since vanilla we knew it was alliance of convenience.

I’ve elaborated on it already, I dilike that because of her being in charge people are acting OOC. Lillian, Garona, Rexxar. Nobody is questioning her other than Saurfang and Baine. We’re dealing with the cheap drama once again because she is in charge of Horde.

As for interaction with her - I disliked Stormheim and each time I did pvp quests. and each time I had to interact with her, but I am grateful that I don’t have to visit her on daily basis in Zandalar, but I don’t see Brownnoser as improvement his comments about “pleasing the Warchief” are also getting on my nerves.

And each time they use explanation that she has ordered stuff and Horde is just doing her orders.

I am angry over Vol’Jin but I wouldn’t demand death of a character simply because Vol’Jin was wasted. I wouldn’t have biggest issues with Thrall, Saurfang, even Baine (if he wasn’t this Alliance enthusiastic), I would be upset but so long as the Horde leadership would be reasonable and maintain it’s spirit I’d be fine.

Only players that are fans of Sylvanas will get same treatment as Garrosh fans had, but it’s mostly due to their inability to see the obvious signs that your favie is the obvious villain, so at least enjoy him as obvious villain but don’t act surprised that people that like the faction they play aren’t happy to have cartoon villain in charge.
But I have no contribution in it other than complaining, if the story will go the way I predicted then it’s not exactly my fault. It’s Blizzard who is this predictable.

I want for each Horde subfaction to get good treatment, but I am spearating forsaken treatment from Sylvanas treatment I believe they’re better off without her and they need some breath of fresh air.

Zelling and Voss was a good start to show that they’re not monsters and they maintained some humanity.
But then again it could be a matter of taste - I don’t like edgy characters, period. Unless they’re edgy for the parody’s sake.

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Ask her lead developer!

“Draenor is free!” makes even less sense but here we have it.

This is as saying that you should just accept that Voljin died a pointless death because that’s the theme blizzard gave him by not showing any of his feats.

And Sylvanas isn’t that much of a villain, compared to the rest of the Forsaken characters that have a mindset akin to hers.

Implying that the story should punish and remove her character for behaving as their race was written to, is equatable to say that Blizzard should just delete the whole Forsaken faction they introduced as playable.

Maybe instead of scapegoating every aspect you find disagreeable, maybe you should start considering that these character do indeed agree with her even if you don’t.
It’s not as if orcs, trolls, Tauren, or goblins have not done similar stuff as the things they are pulling now while under a different warchief.

Disliking blindly a character doesn’t qualify you to ask the removal of said character.

I don’t mind if you don’t like her, but don’t you ever label me again as some “Sylvanas apologist” for arguing against the mentality that drags characters into a popularity contests and kills them if they don’t make the cut.

No, it wasn’t.
She didn’t order stuff like torturing civilians in Brennadam or cutting down Night elf trees. She didn’t order us to take Derek Proudmoore body.

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Only because she doesn’t know its there. The War Campaign grave digging is on her orders.

edit: If “she” is Sylvanas.

The original plan was just to get this other captain for Intel about the Kul tiran fleet. This assassination plan was done on the spot as reaction to Derek out of convenience.

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Well at least I have Rokhan and Zekhan now to root for. I don’t expect much with his spirit cameo the damage was done.

Ok, then how you would’ve handle it? Because I don’t have any sensible ideas other than implement more heroes like Zelling and just cutting the tie with the “evil witch”.

Warchief if a dictator, the only time Horde has fought against Warchief was because said Warchief was bulling Horde members. Sylvanas is mainly focusing on Alliance but it is shown that other Horde members aren’t happy with her ways.
And this is the blackhole thing I was talking about - the actions of certain groups or individuals are ignored or mishandled to make it go as it is.

No I asked for removal because I don’t see any sensible plot with her around. Thankfully Genn stopped her in Stormheim so she wouldn’t produce more of McGuffins to escape death.

To me she is now like Med’an are people not qualified to demand for him to be killed offscreen or perma removed from lore? They never interacted with him after all, maybe they don’t know the truth about him?

Lol but even Brennadam Mayor even said that she is only blaming Sylvanas.
There is main narration, and you can’t escape main narration even when small details doesn’t add up. That’s WoW storytelling for years.

I don’t have problem with Horde attacking Alliance, byt why not use this invasion in Stormsong on Fort Daelin to get a stronghold and armory supplies while sending simply thieves to Brennadam?
That was just stupid evil thing to do.

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Point is, its her orders.

Sylvanas has issued us a mission in Drustvar, where we will find our next target. Report to the Banshee’s Wail immediately.

This is from the Operation: Grave Digger quest.

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I cant believe she didnt know about it. She didnt really care because after Arthas death she wanted to die anyway. But the moment it failed they came in handy to be blamed because she still didnt reach her goal at that time

The order was to attack brennedam and take out the place as bread basket. The cruelties committed was entirely up to the forces. And they totally blew it over the head. I blame the alliance writing team for this.

Well originally the attack was about gathering the bodies to raise. So it made sense as objective to strike harmless village for that purpose, but such an order would fit Lich King, not Horde Warchief. So no matter what it was shoddy writing.

But it is what it is now. I did the quest on Alliance and Mayor of the town pins all blame on Sylvanas. The main narration is that she is initiator and Horde just follows orders.

That is also what Anduin claims over and over.

Just because it upsets Sylvanas fans that “oh she didn’t order to do exactly that” doen’t change that narration so far is : “Sylvanas is evil, she makes Horde evil, and she alone” even powerful death entities are saying she is crossing the line.
Blizzard is this blunt.
I agree that Horde soldiers should be accountable to certain actions, but we’re speaking about expansion narration.

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So my subscription is running for nothing because this is just another mop. Got it. If you love this Saurfang as your savior from evil Sylvanas arc, I hope you will be able to enjoy it. Until Blizzard forces you to accept orders abs quests from Anduin of course. And I stand right with ‘told you so!’

But you don’t care what happens with the characters Forsaken fans like. Wow…

No need to kill her. Make her the racial leader and have a strong hand to keep her negative aspects in check. Like it happened before she was made Warchief.

And good to know you want to completely erase a whole bunch of relevant aspects for another playable race.
I must say that given your past complaints regarding Voljin and the removal of iconic troll characteristics, with this comment you are sounding extremely hypocritical.

And instead of working with it, and fixing the whole narrative, rather scapegoat it all on a character you don’t like and have the rest of the Horde walking away saying that she made them do so.

Because that sort of endings was very satisfactory last time for everybody.

Ok, then why do you feel like removing Voljin was bad? If you think this way, haven’t you thought that maybe others thought the same about him?

And the Horde is blaming the Alliance, so?
Have you read the quest? It mentions Horde.

I don’t think that destroying the second biggest town on Kul Tiras after Boralus is a stupid move. But whatever.

The one spearheading the assault is Rexxar, not Sylvanas. The one that marks the objectives is Rexxar, not Sylvanas.

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Lol what? Is that what took from my quote? Really? No! I didn’t say I don’t care for forsaken fans or characters, quite the opposite - in fact forsaken has now surge of new ones to possibly take Sylvanas spot. They’re right now in much better position than Darkspears because Blizzard already took it’s time to develop proper roster, and for that I am happy for them.

Yet it’s quite clear that we have differences in what we see as favorable treatment. I don’t like how they were portreyed and I wished they were more like Gauldoth half-dead from HoMM4, a place where undead made clear difference that they’re not like any other undead, and they fought their own rightful place in the world. Small one but their leader - Gauldoth, was smart enough to understand that since they’re undead everyone will look at them with disgust and mistrust. What he did?

He didn’t wage the war with entire world, but simply proved the biggest kingdom that he is not a threat to them by sending invasion plans as a warning and a message that he could do it, but he is not interested in it, he just wants peace and for nobody to bother him.

That was one of the most clever and interesting plots regarding undead. The one I could get behind, it’s reasonable and not over the top.
But this is not Heroes story, this is WoW story. So we have Scourge 2.0 because one leader is paranoid and completely forgot how the living behave.

She reached the point of no return. She alone is the reason why Alliance won’t stop the total war until she pais for her crimes.
You can’t keep leader just because you like him or her. That’s just as bad as killing someone without a reason to the plot.

each character needs to have it’s purpose once said purpose is over this is where you usually drop the character.

No I don’t, don’t be melodramatic. either Forsaken are capable of being faction that has it’s own theme or they’re cult of personality and Sylvanas plot is unseparatable from them. If that is the case then they’re not worthy of being a faction. And I guess that’s not what you aim for them to be, is it?

The problem with troll leaders is that they’re killed without development. They’re just loot pinatas.

Sylvanas had enough story, her character growth is complete. This is why Varian’s death was good because he had his time to grow.
Vol’Jin’s death wouldn’t be such a big blow if he was given time to be actually do something as a Warchief and had a ready replacement.

If you cannot see the bloody difference then don’t bother anymore.

That’s not what I do, that’s what Blizzard does I’m writing how it is.

For me it was. I wanted to remove Garrosh and Garrosh was removed.

Because he was being built up as a leader, he earned it. Removing him in order to put Sylvanas in position did quite a few terrible things:

  • It completely trashed entire MoP set up, that Horde is something more that mindless brutes that cause destruction
  • it removed the only relevant troll back at the time and left void, there was no replacement ready.
  • it completely buried his potential as a true leader which was described in his book - so a golden middle between Garrosh and Thrall.
    He had all the qualities to bring Horde back on the right track.

And what we have now? Scourge 2.0. not a Horde.

Which is comletely irrevelant to the point I was making.

The Horde is an army, make no mistake. And armies need orders.
Someone must be giving orders here. They know the plan, and I want to know the plan too.

Look for the people who seem to be in charge and see if you can uncover any intelligence so we know what to do next.
Completion:
The Banshee Queen is not like the previous Warchiefs.

It would be wiser to first take down a fortress and ensure easy conquest?
Besides why destroying city when you can simply occupy it? Why wasting resources? And use bombs on stuff that could actually pose as a threat.

Hahahahaha :joy:
Sorry.
But weren’t you (sorry if I got this part wrong) that argued that Rexxar came AFTER Brennadam invasion and just had to take reclaim what was left of it?

And no, the one who was spearheading it was the one who had orders so :https://www.wowhead.com/npc=138028/champion-lockjaw

At least it would make sense that he was in charge, no? And seeing all needless violence it makes sense it would come from “pragmatic forsaken”.

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You said that you don’t mind Vol’jin dying because you have two other characters to fill his role.

But apparently, Forsaken fans should just settle with some new characters that have nothing to do with how the playable race was initially marketed or developed recently.

And still you argue how Vol’jin character could’ve been used for much more, even if Blizzard could’ve intended to use him only as something temporary whose purpose was to appoint Sylvanas as warchief and usher this narrative.

They have their current theme that includes plenty of the aspects Sylvanas displays. And good to know that leader-centric races have no right to exist.

Zandalari and their God-King leader apparently should be wiped as a race. Same as Draenei, and also current humans.

You previously said that Vol’jin had a huge impact on the Horde. That doesn’t count as development?

I think you are one of the few that argues positively about SoO ending.

All i see is a Forsaken dominated Horde when before we had an Orc dominated Horde. I won’t judge personal tastes.

But i’m pretty sure there will be people enjoying having their favourite race in the spotlight for once (People that grew just as tired regarding tagging along SmORC theme)

They are literally talking about the Horde army.

Because you are negating resources to the enemy? Because taking down a farm is easier than a single outpost, and twice as harmful for the enemy?

Wasn’t talking about Brennadam there, i was talking about the whole campaign in Stormsong.

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You consider slavers “civilians”. Good to know!

Bear in mind I said “civilians”. The Alliance commander had no idea who was on that boat but fired on them anyway - that’s not better, but it’s a far cry from deliberately burning a World Tree containing three towns and a city or dropping Mana Bombs on people.

The Alliance commander is indifferent. Sylvanas is cruel.

EDIT: The slavers - or “civilians” if you prefer - could’ve rescued their prisoners from the hold but chose not to. The Alliance commander didn’t even know they were there.

Given the evidence in text you can quite easily go further than that.

The Alliance fights to preserve land, life and livelihood, and tries to do so morally and without undue harm. However, they’re not perfect. Standards slip occasionally. Commanders sink unidentified vessels, commanders order soldiers to fire on drowning seamen, past crimes by important individuals are ignored. This is all deplorable, of course.

However, look who they’re fighting. Atrocities against civilians and non-military targets are standard operating procedure for the Horde. Stormsong sending supplies to Kul Tiran soldiers? Send a full military detachment to slaughter a town full of farmers just in case they start supplying the Alliance. World Tree containing a major city and three small towns? “BURN IT!” Theramore? Mana Bomb. Ruthlessness, cruelty, disregard for life and apathy towards suffering - all hallmarks of villainy, all written throughout the very soul of the Horde since before day one.

The Alliance isn’t perfect, but when your enemy is as ruthless and cruel as the Horde you can’t really afford to be. This is one of the major complaints people have with Anduin’s characterisation this xpac. The story team are essentially trying to tell us that no matter how despicable your enemy is, no matter how little regard they have for innocent life or how willing they are to kick your teeth in, if you just stick to your idealistic principles you’ll eventually triumph via the Power Of Love. It’s a complete crock. The constant deus ex machinas don’t aid belivability either.

tl;dr - The Alliance is the good guy faction who occasionally dips into villainy. The Horde is the bad guy faction whose individual members are occasionally humanised with backstory.

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I ask myself more often I do the Scenario Questline at the Darkshore actually only one thing: what is the price the Tyrande in the end has to pay. Maiev suggests something, the sudden disappearance of the night warrior. You also notice that Tyrande is out for revenge, you can tell by her behavior, as noted in the other thread, she left her saber, as well as Sentinels, and went ruthlessly on.

I suppose that she hoped that they survived, but if not, they would have just been another victim, which in this case had to be sacrificed for the revenge of their people.

Just imagine if we wouldn’t come. Tyrande, Kitty & Sentinels would die because Tyrande couldn’t wait that long…

Malfurion was there too, though. Also she pretty much soloed the scenario herself once the ritual was completed. She’d probably have been fine.

TBH I do think Tyrande would go that far for vengeance. In Warcraft 3 she killed the Night Elf Wardens to break Illidan out of prison. I wouldn’t say it is to far of a stretch that she is so fixated on the Night Warrior she’ll do anything to get it. If leaving her troops and mount behind lead to it then so be it.

No, i consider the rest of the crew, and the ones chained beneath, civilians. As the intro quest for goblins say they are. And he is as indifferent regarding the people he kills as Sylvanas when targetting Teldrassil

He didn’t even care who was he killing. Might have been some boat filled with kids.

Yeah…not really.

Nope. In fact, most of the bad stuff was demonised to the point we just had a civil war in which the Horde tried to kill the one ordering them to do that sort of stuff.

Almost. Deal less in absolutes and i would agree.