Pragmatism is not a mindset concerned with past slights. Once the Blood Elves are back on their feet which we can assume should have been some time before Cataclysm given how much progress the Argents have made on the Plaguelands it stops being pragmatic to send your troops out to fight wars and antagonise people and it starts being pragmatic to amass your strength and play the field.
The Blood Elves in Cataclysm could have actually done a pretty good move by leaving the Horde when Garrosh joined, effectively turning the war into the Allianceâs favour and turning over Dalaran to 100% Alliance control. If the Horde decides to take actions against Quelâthalas at that point all they would be doing is showing their bums to the Alliance who are out on the warpath at that point.
Leaving at that juncture could have been a dramatic move to turn the tide of the war and remove Quelâthalas from the political field.
Again Iâll say given their actions the Blood Elves are clearly not acting out of pragmatism.
Correct me if Iâm wrong, but arenât all the Bansheeâs and aside from Nathanos, all dark rangers, former elves of Quelâthalas? Then atop of that a whole bunch of âregularâ forsaken mixed in with the human ones.
Basically, like half the population they lost. And they are back with their own minds and offering peace.
And since I havenât looked in a while so I do not know if itâs there, they even had the teleportation orb connecting the forsaken capital directly to inside the -main- building of Silvermoon. That shows alot of trust and soft spot for this race in particular.
So, while I personally do not like Sylvanas very much or the way the forsaken are going in terms of agression, due to the close relations with the forsaken for so many years, it can honestly be difficult for the Blood elves to sever those connections. Itâs been more than just an alliance, or so all signs point.
Unfortunately we never did get any indication (certainly not any explicit quests) about the Blood Elves exploring leaving the Horde, perhaps during a major conflict in a previously mist-covered land, only for it to be ruined by the actions of the now-Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras.
LikeâŚthey touched on this. Lorâthemar talked about it. Directly to the player. What more do you want?
You mean that time where the Blood Elves violated the neutrality of Dalaran and then got upset that it led to the Alliance kicking them out so instead of deciding to just leave the Horde which would still have been the better choice they instead stayed WITH the Horde.
My argument is that Blood Elves do not behave pragmatically, not that their actions are not justified for one reason or another.
Edit: Also, leaving the Horde does not necessitate joining the Alliance. Quelâthalas is perhaps the second most easily defensible nation on Azeroth besides Ironforge. They could have easily just withdrawn from world politics entirely at that point.
Canât be any neutrality when Jaina already broke it.
Weird way to phrase âslaughtering them in the streets and locking them up without trialâ.
Not retaliating against the Alliance after they killed and abducted your people would have shown Lorâthemar as a weak leader and Quelâthalas as a weak nation. It was entirely pragmatic to maintain their ties with the Horde. They canât fight the Alliance on their own.
While Jaina has grown, and I quite like her arc in BfA so far, and while its clear that Theramore had a deep mental impact on her, she did go quite overboard emotionally and in her acts.
She went to destroy Orgrimmar(eye for an eye), but she did also condemn Thrall of all people for Garrosh actions. She went on to kill any blood elf she saw in Dalaran, before going straight past the council of six and outright banishing them.
And in SoO, after seeing the horde working together with them to stop Garrosh, and with one of her -oldest- living friends present, she tries to lure Varian into straight up murdering their temporary allies, her old friend included. This would have also caused another massive war in the middle of this capitol and would have been alot more losses in the end.
Then of course, when the friggin Burning Legion invades for a third time, big and bad, she refuses to defend the world and goes off to pout because Anduin refuses to send all of the Alliance to kill the Horde, in the middle of this invasion.
Alot of her actions are, to say the least, unstable.
I actually agree with Levey. I think this nails down the point best, and it is definitely how Iâve always RPed my elves. And the whole âpolitical correctnessâ that they do employ plays a major role in voicing their opinions while making no enemies.
That is pretty much the definition of pragmatism. They do it because it works, not because they like it.
Jaina did not break the neutrality. The Kirin Tor provide aid to both the Alliance and the Horde with regards to magical affairs and it does not restrict the behaviours of its members to being entirely neutral unless they are on official Kirin Tor business. Jaina at no point violated the neutrality of Dalaran.
Canât be slaughtered if you left when you were told to. Sunreavers turned Dalaran into a Warzone then got surprised when Jaina started getting all militant against them.
There would be no call for them to fight the Alliance if they left the Horde.
The Sunreavers made their bed and making them to lie in it would not show Lorâthemar to be a weak leader, but a just one.
It is not pragmatic to be concerned with the opinions of others if you can easily prove them wrong when the time comes.
Jaina was actively working in Darnassus in service of the Alliance against Horde infiltrators prior to the Sunreavers being called in.
How is that not âbreaking neutralityâ?
When was that? Jaina gets home from Darnassus, immediately kills some Sunreavers and arrests Aethas. Then we turn around and sheâs already slaughtering cowering people in the streets.
Because sheâs operating in her capacity of a citizen of the Alliance. The Kirin Tor have nothing to do with Jainaâs unofficial business, however trafficking the bell through Dalaran is an entirely different matter. Thatâs not people behaving as private citizens, thatâs people appropriating Dalaranâs resources for military means.
Eh, fair enough, but thatâs still not addressing the point I made that the Sunreavers are the ones who turned this into a military issue. They visibly violated the neutrality of Dalaran and whilst it would have been good form for Jaina to order them all to leave immediately itâs also not really incumbent upon her as a military actor at that point.
Mmh, though if the council of six disagreed they could probably have stopped Jaina if they wanted to.
She was leader of the Council of Six. Helping the Alliance against the Horde violates the neutrality and if you cannot see that then youâre beyond discussion.
She is not an asset of Dalaran. She is an individual free to behave as she wishes when not operating in an official capacity. Had Aethas just stolen the bell without using Kirin Tor resources it would have been equally fine. The sticking point is that Dalaran was a neutral actor in the war and the Sunreavers mucked that up.
Kael conspired with the enemy and was imprisoned for it. So sayeth the Holy Chronicles. But then, conspiring with the enemy for a greater good is very pragmatic of him, isnât it?
Actually, looking up at wowpedia, it is really kinda weird that entire arc with Jaina and the Kirin tor.
Garrosh bombs Theramore, she goes to Dalaran to get aid. They say they wont break the neutrality. She then -steals- several tomes from Dalaran and tries to use this to obliterate Orgrimmar. She is stopped by Thrall whom she berates, and goes back to Kirin Tor.
She apoloigies, and wishes to rejoin Kirin Tor as a novice. The leaders for whatever reason, Aethas included, decides to instead make her the leader of the whole organisation, on par with themselves. Aethas even makes the final speeches off support and vows her in, and offers to assist as he can.
Later on in MoP, Aethas is unhappy with Jaina, because he still believes Dalaran should be neutral and not go into the war, but Jaina is using Dalaran and its resources to assist Darnassus.
Another blood elf makes a portal to sneak past the wards, something Aethas finds out about, and even berates the horde adventurers for it, saying that Dalaran should not help the Horde gain resources. Jaina finds out about this, Aethas tells her his view/that he tried to stop it, and she decides to imprison him, practically dismantle the council, and then finally go on a killing spree around Dalaran on all blood elves.
Aight. My bad. Though complicity is similarly damning.
Thanks for the correction though. (^_^)b
Oh fo sho. She nutso. Aethas as you described him there was a real nice dude, but he made a fatal mistake of not holding his people to his own standard and ultimately brought this upon himself.