Unpopular Opinions

Argent Dawn
2617

They absolutely do though. That’s implied in most laws in Europe, I’m sure it’s also stated so in the Danish law that you need to have taken the necessary precautions in an action in order to be absolved from the possible criminal outcomes it has (IE: You accidentally systematically sell alcohol/tobacco to a minor because they faked their ID vs you only check their height/face and thus sell products like that forward systematically). The same surely applies with things like not diddling with minors? (It does here, at least).

I could be wrong though, but it’d seem very odd to me. You definitely should have at the very least the moral obligation to ensure that the partner you practise this stuff with is of legal age. You must be able to prove that you didn’t have a malicious intent, you didn’t neglect your legal responsibilities, and that you took sufficient precautions in case of a problem. Law’s pragmatic.

…Can you give an example?

After all, if it is not against the ToS, you should be fine posting it here.

(Yes, this is in fact a joke, in case it doesn’t translate across my message and I’ll just agree to disagree on the definition).

5 Likes
2619

In my opinion the whole “Activision and Blizzard are separate companies. Activision has no say in how Blizzard is run.” defence I have been seeing people use for years now has been a load of dung ever since, or shortly after, the merger happened.

7 Likes
2621

The Company was the greatest criminal RP guild AD has seen in a long time and will be missed by all quality RPers.

4 Likes
2626

Quite, It was raised earlier in this thread that criminality is judged upon intent rather than action - this is not the case for all countries and legal jurisdictions. Certainly not for the UK regarding engaging in sex with minors. There are plenty of examples of men who are aged 19+ having intercourse with girls aged between 13-15 whom are deceived by the girl having a fake profile age, presenting as older etc. and their defence of “but I didn’t know she wasn’t of age” is no defence. They’re still convicted because they committed the action of engaging in sexual intercourse with a minor.

It may seem like a “law is a donkey’s rear” approach, but this is one of the risks regarding ERP on WoW. As Blizzard tend to follow the lead on the laws of the countries involved if there is some form of illegal activity occurring, one needs to be extremely careful. Even making sexually suggestive comments which are not explicit in nature towards a minor can get you in serious trouble in the UK if it is deemed that the expression of words carried a clear implied sexual intention. The nature of the words used varies how clearly this inference can be made. There have been instances in the UK of older men being charged with grooming crimes because of text strings that whilst carrying no outright sexual language, were filled with references about them wanting to “kiss and cuddle” a younger, not-of-age girl.

Because of the variation in the law on this, this is why I think people steer clear of ERP in a way that they do not when making emotes regarding violent behaviour. There is a legal background to sexual language particularly when directed at minors (who may well be playing the game) that does not exist regarding comments about violence per say (unless making direct threats to the person). That’s enough for people to view it as shady and problematic, rendering it a “hands off” topic.

Additionally as has been mentioned, where ERP can become a mainstay of zones and locations it can impact non-ERP RP by making those zones unusable to the general populace, or having people’s intentions misjudged if they want to go there. In this case the objection isn’t a “RAWR TOS BREACH” one, rather people simply don’t like it because it might sully their attempts to carry out the RP they prefer. You have to consider as well there are few instances online where, with the benefit of a presented world, models and mechanics, one can roleplay as a Blood Elf, whilst taking advantage of a pre-created world, and writing adventures in it. There are several places available online where one can go to engage in ERP so the objection here is a case of “I’m not necessarily saying it’s morally wrong objectively, rather is this really the place for it?” which is a fair objection in my opinion. Particularly if the result is people who engage in their hobby (ERP) are taking up space, resources, reputation of others looking to engage in their hobby (WoW RP) when one of those groups is limited by an avenue the other is not. It’s similar to people using a library to engage in socialising with their friends in a conversational manner perhaps. There’s nothing to say they can’t, but the question is why do it there? And is it really that unbelievable that people who wish to use the library to study object to their presence there?

2 Likes
2628

This is a very interesting and enlightening post.

I would add that this is also relevant for people looking to meet up with acquaintances made in WoW looking to date.
As I’m sure we all know, several people these days find their IRL partners through the game, and these people must be equally, if not more so, obliged to obtain legal documentation of their (prospective) partner’s age before meeting up IRL.

I agree with your other arguments.

2629

Just to be clear, i’m not signalling that I agree with the law in the instances I observed, as much of it works just a bit too via inference rather than evidence for my liking. I’m simply making clear some countries like my own are very spikey on this subject and as such, given blizzard acquiesce to their laws in such infringements it may be part of the reason ERP is viewed more consistently dubiously than other potentially TOS breaching forms of RP, because of the legal culture the individual involved originates from.

I think extrapolating it to dating is perhaps a bit of a snowball. As far as i’m aware no legal frameworks that exist in the world have laws about who you can and can’t be friends with, nor do any technically have any laws about who you can feel romantically about (they only enter the conversation when it is thought this romantic intent implies a sexual intent/grooming which might coalesce or does coalesce into action, and the variation on that is down to the country’s twitchiness on the subject).

Therefore checking people’s documentation or such before entering friendships with them or online relationships without a sexual angle (which can arguably simply be defined as “Intimate friendships”) is irrelevant, because no legal system has opinions about these matters. That’s more a case of how gullible is the person entering a “relationship” with someone they haven’t met, but let’s say one was lying and wasn’t in fact who they said they were. It’s a douche move, but it’s not illegal. Whereas ERPing with someone who you thought was one age, but isn’t,. and is in fact underage, results in your technically committing an illegal activity (entering into sexual activity with a minor). The two situations are different. One is predicated by legal threat, the other common sense.

2 Likes
2631

It really is as simple as some say here. There are a variety of different ages at which point certain things are, or are not a criminal offence, in some countries what is criminal at 20 is perfectly legal at 16. America is the hilarious example, they can be sent to fight and die in war, but are not allowed to drive or buy a beer, or rather they can drive, but only vehicles of warfare, not a car back home, Also nookie is not allowed. So a person cannot drink an alcoholic beverage, cannot drive a vehicle, cannot have loving consensual sex with a partner, but is allowed and encouraged to Kill johnny foreigner?

Yeah… So lets ignore Blizzards TOS, they do apply, but America’s morality system is way out of whack with what most people would consider to be actual -morality-.

If you are ERPing, you are potentially breaking the law in every European country. That’s a simple fact. Exposing minors to sexually explicit content is a criminal offence in every European country, regardless of what age they regard Minors as being. Pro Tip. None of them say 12. Even worse is messaging a person whose age you do not know and sending them sexy messages. I mean unless you know that said person, and I mean -know- not just -They said- that said person is an adult in their country, then you are committing a gross sexual offence, that not only carries a custodial sentence, but a high chance of getting a severe beating or death in prison.

So why do it?

What is it adding?

You can challenge these things, I did so with the Atrocity Fetish that both Horde and Alliance seem to have developed, and people were disgusted. “Good. That’s what you were doing, you just wanted to dodge the consequences”

But the thing is, the horrible thing is, there are more rules in place to protect kids against sexually graphic material, than physically graphic material. And it is horrible, but it is right. You’re never going to speak to someone who was burned to death, or decapitated, or rendered limb from limb. BUt you might speak to someone who was sexually assaulted. I mean that is entirely possible. I think that is -why- there is a distinction. Why we view ERP so much more dimly than the violence prevalent in the game, because when Sexual Assault has been touched upon, as with Aedalas Blackmoore, Blizzard almost instantly tried to ‘Nope’ the hell out of it. We know what he did to Taretha Foxton, it didn’t need spelling out, It is, bizarrely, but understandably, a much more taboo issue than simple murder, decapitation and such. Does the morality make sense? No, not really, but one is fatal, and ends a life, the other is survivable, but leaves human wreckage behind. So yeah. Ban ERP. If people want to do that as consenting adults, do it on Facebook Direct Messages, do it on Discord. Do not do it on an online game when 12 year olds could read it. /endrant.

10 Likes
2634

LOL @ people who think that ERPing with someone could make you a sex criminal. You do know that in the utterly unlikely case it would become a court trial (it wouldn’t, but for the thought experiment) the judge also keeps things like intent in mind right?

My point was that there’s a lot of ERP going on, no matter your thoughts on it, and this is probably a bigger factor in why people keep RPing than you might like to admit.

It’s like how VHS got popular off the back of prawn. WoW RP remains relevant thanks to ERP. I’m convinced of this, considering just how many people do it.

Nothing else, no judgement one way or another - not even a comment on whether this is a good or bad thing.

2635

Low energy bait. Back into the shadow, ye beast.

10 Likes
2636

Not actually bait, just an observation I made RPing for 14 years now.

2637

Instead of fighting against it, you joined them.

2638

Tell that to the several guys in the UK who have all been banged up for engaging in sexual relations/sexual texting with girls under age of consent. Their intent was clearly sexual towards the other person, whether they thought they were the age or not does not factor into their intent (their intent was to have sex/sext).

Their intent would only be relevant if they somehow tried to argue in that by undressing and leading the young lady to their room they were not actually intending to sleep with her. That’s where intent comes into the law. What you’re talking about is ignorance of the circumstances, which is NOT seen as a viable defence unless you can demonstrate that the individual claiming ignorance has a good reason to be so (they are mentally disabled, a child, etc) your regular adult joe cannot argue “I didn’t know” because the general onus in such cases is that individuals of adult age are responsible for ensuring their sexual activity takes place within remit of the law ie. they make sure they’re not bonking children. Taking a random naïve teenagers word for it is not seen as viable to defend as to why they didn’t take precautions.

At least in the UK anyway.

2 Likes
2639

As someone who knows a High Court Judge. No, that is not how they think at all. The Onus is on the soliciting party, not the solicited, as it should be. So yes, It is a criminal offence, sorry to break that to you, but if an accredited Judge who can hand out custodial sentences in my country of residence tells me that, I am more inclined to take their view on things than someone on the Internet going ‘ERP is OK’

Do you have any evidence, even empirical evidence, to back this up? As in anything at all? We have established from a legal point of view this is simply not correct, Where are your facts coming from?

7 Likes
2640

I don’t know what your background is, in this field, but your input is very interesting.

I wonder how the law works on these types of cases that cross national borders.
We’ve had cases on AD with people, underage in their country, being harassed by people wanted ERP.
If these people are living in different countries with different laws, how would legal action be conducted?
According to which country’s laws?

I can’t quite grasp the logistics of it

2641

[quote=“Brigante-argent-dawn, post:2639, topic:12179”]
Do you have any evidence, even empirical evidence, to back this up? As in anything at all? We have established from a legal point of view this is simply not correct, Where are your facts coming from?[/quote]

Who’s talking about facts? Didn’t the words “I’m convinced of” clue you in that it’s my opinion, an observation?

The Stormwind High Court is fictional.

2642

Currently it is based in ‘Law of the Land’ as in the age limits are applied that way. Its sketchy, but it is part of how the EU nations retained their own sovereignty. So a 17 year old in the UK? Totally legal. 16 is the age of Majority over here, once 16 you are your own person, and do not need permission to do anything (Apart from drink, but lets not start on that ) You can even join the Armed forces at that age, however you will not be sent overseas into combat until later.

2643

You know what Moody, I have no idea. I’m not very clued up on when law crosses borders involving the internet. All I have to go on is Blizz’s rather vague “they’ll defer to the laws of residence where relevant” statement, but beyond that I have no idea what would actually happen if an actual criminal activity took place.

I’m assuming if the complainant reports it to their police force, it would be taken under their jurisdiction as technically the offence was received on that country’s soil. I’m not a legal expert in this territory though, i’m more familiar with principles and spirit of law in general but application in the digital age is a minefield.

Others here might know. You should ask your friend what they think Brig

1 Like
2644

Did it ever cross your mind for a moment, that I actually meant a -High Court Judge- as in a real one?

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2645

:man::fishing_pole_and_fish::woman:

Even if it were impossible to have someone convicted of sex crimes if there were proven circumstances of ERP with a minor, should we also as people - presumably possessing some kind of basic decency - accept that there’s been no wrongdoing?

Cornering internet predators legally / directly is a difficult thing due to the nature of anonymity online, but I would absolutely stay away from / call out someone who is a proven to be predatory toward other players, regardless of their age.

Not knowing or caring whether you’ve solicited a minor for sexual means and continuing to do it is a little on the unpleasant side.

4 Likes
2646

While I understand this attitude, I do think it’s problematic when citizens personally take on the responsibility of meting out punishment to perceived law breakers.

Due process, while limited at times, exists for a reason.

Mostly directed at your “call out” comment.