Since beta server Valdrakken is out ( server when you create a charcter itâs auto 70 level and can queue Solo Shuffle ranked) i have been spamming the ranked solo shuffle.
The unranked Solo shuffle in live have already some unfair point like the gearing system of shadowland due to lack of MMR and ranking.
I have tested the Ranked solo and i want to make some clarification about the reality of the ranked :
Your rating does not depend on your personal skill only. Many think that it is all about themself and can carry every game but sometime you will find some people that canât be carried and by so your rating is impacted by them.
This mean if you do 1 solo shuffle and lose 2 rounds, in your profile it will be written 4 wins and 2 lost for 6 games played.
I wanted to share this, i think thatâs important to point out. Many think that because they are X rating in shadowland multiplayer they will get quickly maximum rating but that is not the truth, sometime itâs impossible.
I want also the WoW dev team to rethink about the rating distribution or at least how the âlobbyâ to regroup some player with different rating is made. For me if someone have 3 win his rating should not change, lower his rating go down and 4+ his rating go higher. Doing 5 wins and losing rating is humiliating and do not want the player to push more in the solo shuffle ranked knowing he can lose rating even when well played.
Seems the problem is caused by each round counting as a match. But at the same time if each round wouldnât count as a match, then itâd probably have major implications on solo shuffles where people abandon, since if all 6 rounds combined would only count as 1 match rating-wise, then if a person abandons before the shuffle is finished then itâd kinda become like the problem now with the lack of conq and honor bonus, except with rating instead.
I think it maybe could be solved, if theyâd reshape the rating system. Instead of losing so much rating from losses, if theyâd reduce the amount lost but still keep the amount won the same as now, then theyâd need to massively increase the MMR roof but itâd also make the climb more linear and wouldnât make you lose so much rating just because you didnât win all 6 rounds in a shuffle vs. lower-rated players.
Although depending on participation numbers it might be fine the way it works now, since a more populated ladder (when compared to PTR/beta that is) means the rating differences wonât really be significant due to how the matchmaking first starts close to your MMR and then increases the parameters the more time you spend in the queue. So shorter queues means smaller rating differences in the matchups, on average. Just gotta hope the ladder participation will stay close to that âsweet spotâ where it decreases queue times instead of increasesâŠ
soloshuffle as a mage will feel hard af, its always the same godamn zugzugs going 4-6 wins, was going decent first days, then it became all about the same as retail, zugzuging 3melees 1 caster feeling kinda useless
Doubt theyâll fix it before release.
6 wins system is dumb, how will they manage to calculate for 12 players in the match equal mmr/rating receiving depending on wins and current mmr for each player?
Why they couldnt make pr server soloq with 1 win only, lose => next, u even have ignore list for bad players in soloq? Just make all classes able to hard carry bad players. Issue with useless classes will be even worse in 6 rounds soloq.
What are you talking about? Itâs each round counting as 1 match, so itâs 6 matches total per solo shuffle. Itâs calculated exactly the same way as it is now in the regular ladder, except it does that 6 times per shuffle.
What the OP was talking about was when a player is rated so high compared to most of the others in the shuffle that the player only actually ends up winning rating from the shuffle if the player can win basically all of the rounds in the shuffle, or else the player ends up either losing or not gaining any rating instead because the rating difference was too big.
To clarify it a bit better, itâs as if youâd play 400 MMR below your CR, thus not winning much rating when you win, but the MMR wonât increase. So you win 5 matches on that low MMR, then lose the 6th match, and remember the MMR hasnât gone up. So you win like 3 rating per win, so 15 rating in total from those 5 wins, then lose the 6th and you lose 16 rating because itâs still on that low MMR. When that happens in a shuffle, itâd of course only show you the scoreboard in the end, and youâd only get a â-1 ratingâ as a result from the shuffle even if you won 5 out of 6 matches in that shuffle, in such a scenario.
Thatâs what happens. Itâs not a â6 wins systemâ. Itâs just that the matchmaking parameters expanded too far ± because too much time was spent in the queue. This problem will probably happen more often to DPSers, but keep in mind that rating will split people up even further so some rating ranges might have a better healer/tank to dps-ratio than others.
The real worry should be wintrading though, since rating ranges where very few people queue can have a pretty easy time to reach âunderstandingsâ whenever they face each other, since theyâre more prone to face each other often on that high rating.
Imagine 2 healers who often face each other in rated solo shuffle on high rating come to an agreement that theyâll keep letting each other win 3 rounds each. Healer is such an impactful role that they can actually cause such things to happen, they just donât need to give it their all to heal, like for example eating interrupts on purpose. Will be kinda hard to spot when someone does it on purpose.
Iâve meant not 6 wins but rounds and 6 players, sry.
What Iâm talking about is every player in soloq has its own MMR and CR.
To put together ranked players in rated match youâll need to be specific MMR. You gain and lose you rating depending on your CR and MMR. MMR is calculated depending on each member in party(for example, im 2.5k mmr and my mate is 1.8k mmr, we might have 2.2k mmr in arena). If u lose u get -20cr and u win and get 0cr. IF you cannot find an enemy team for a while, u face lower team where lose cost u -20cr and win will be 0cr.
Now, in soloq it requires to put together 6 different players RANDOMLY where every one have their own MMR and CR. Letâs they the guy from screenshot had highest MMR and got people with lowest MMR. Instead of stop queueing after one win/loss because of lack of people he tryhards and win 5/6 and lose rating. Fair system. They cant fix it unless every one should be ± 100mmr. And yes this guy can have lowest mate in his team and opposite which doesnât give him rating because of that and force him to lose more rating when he loses a round and doesnât give him any rating if he wins the lowest.
So to make a fair system, how it is possible to calculate fair rating receiving? If I win vs bad players in enemy team and next round I lose with bad players in my team because my mates has lower mmr, should I get my rating personally or should my rating be giving like Iâve played with my lowest 1.8kmmr friend.
Also I see possible issue in future. From 6 rounds u receive around 0-400 rating. If there will be 2400 achive for soloq Iâm 99% sure that that would be the easiest rating, and even more easier then season 2 of shadowlands. It doesnt make sense to not change and change mmr while these 6 rounds are played
Youâre forgetting one aspect of matchmaking design. Itâs time spent in queue. It does start with a very small ± matchmaking parameter, in case you didnât know. The thing Blizzard has done, which is pretty typical for video games, is increase the parameters with time spent in queue. This is to prevent people sitting forever in the queue. Itâs undoubtedly a function in their rated solo shuffle queue as well, just as itâs part of the regular queues.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that it ârandomly throws people togetherâ regardless of MMR, but that isnât how it works.
Where did you get that from? I just mentioned it as part of the metaphor to give you a clearer image of how it can result in rating lost even while winning more than 3 games in a shuffle. I never said it doesnât change the MMR after each round. But itâd be too complicated to explain to you how after each round with MMR changes it can still end up with rating lost even when winning more than 3 rounds, so I went with a simpler way of explaining it.
U didnât get my point. And what u said is the biggest issue in 6 rounds soloq. It will randomly throws people together regardless of MMR. But someone will be the lowest (letâs say -200mmr from average) and some one in team will be the highest (+200 mmr from average). We will wait forever to be awarded fairly or we lose rating with 5/6 wins.
What I mean is that question combining with issue receiving A LOT OF rating from wins:
Thatâs what you said. What are you saying I didnât get? Iâm saying that it doesnât do that. It doesnât randomly throw people together regardless of MMR. It starts with matchmaking parameters ± of your own MMR, and then expands those parameters the longer the time you spend in the queue, because the ultimate purpose of the matchmaking system is to find people to play with.
That depends on your MMR vs. the opponentsâ combined MMR. How much rating you get per win depends on your rating vs. the opponentsâ combined MMR.
Letâs say you are 2.8k mmr in soloq. U r the highest on the ladder. U are waiting for so long and u get in your team 2 players that are about 2.5k-2.6k mmr. But same time in enemy team there are 3 2.8k mmr players.
If itâs current system(from 2s/3s): when u lose it takes - 30cr, when u win it gives u +1cr.
If itâs soloq: perhaps it is almost the same.
But if u r a good player on 2.5k mmr somehow and u win 5/6 rounds uâll get, just speculating, about 400 rating. Which isnât equal winning 5 games in normal arena when u are playing with high mmr friend.
Combined or not doesnt matter. Itâs lowest mmr friend and me big mmr issue
P.S. As a dev myself I hardly see how blizzard devs will solve this. Perhaps, it will be with the mentioned problems by me. In real scenario, not beta, it maaaay be not that bad with lowest friend and me big mmr.
Now youâre starting to touch on a flaw with the methodology of quantifying ability in this system. See, the rating systemsâ ultimate purpose is to put a number representing your ability relative to other participants.
So when you get into a match, waiting for that long, where people are much lower-rated, then your ability is supposed to be greater than theirs. But if your ability isnât greater than theirs, even though theyâre lower-rated, then that tells the rating system that you donât belong on that exact rating because there are those lower-rated that belongs above you. Hence it gives more points to the lower-rated for winning, and make you lose more for losing, due to the rating differences.
This is a fundamental part of rating systems. However, this is why the amount played matters too, and why each rating system increases its accuracy in representing your ability with a rating, with the more games youâve played. Because if you lost rating once or twice but keep winning everything else, then youâll keep going up in rating compared to where you started. But once you reach that place where you feel âstuckâ and donât go up or down more than just very little, then thatâs where the rating system has concluded is where you fit in better relative to the rest of the participants, at that moment.
But WoW isnât like chess unfortunately, and all rating systems (for competition) originate from the ones developed for chess. In WoW, youâre not able to fully carry on your own, and there are inherent weaknesses and strengths in different matchups meaning some are stronger against certain stuff more than others and so on. Gear also matters until you reach the stage where everyone got the same kind of gear.
So because WoW PvP is a team-based rated PvP game, itâll never be as accurate when quantifying your ability into a certain rating as the systems would be in a game like chess. But it does quantify more things, like your ability for teamwork, your communication-skills, your ability for diplomacy, on top of everything else that is quantified like ability to play and so on.
Which means youâll do better with some more than others. But your ability to influence those you play with is also part of what affects the results, so itâll affect your rating and where the system says you belong in the ladder.
No, it isnât. Youâve got a personal MMR, but due to playing with someone much lower rated your MMR gets dragged down so your opponentsâ combined MMR becomes naturally lower than your personal MMR and CR. What the system does, is determine your MMR and CR increase/loss based on that difference to the opponentsâ combined MMR. After the matchmaking is done, then your own teamâs MMR isnât relevant anymore for how much rating youâll personally win/lose.
^ Thatâs a way to solve it.
Yeah, it does that because thereâs a lack of healers compared to the demand from the DPSers, so it incentivizes queuing from healers by offering more currency. It has no effect on the rating.
It doesnt drag down my MMR. MMR is calculated by 3 team members. And if Iâm low personal mmr and high cr, I do not receive any rating and it doesnt make sense to give me rating. Cause I can be 30% win ratio and high cr.
Your solution is about to give everyone at the end of the season 20k CR which doesnât represent any skill. You cannot keep current rating system, which actually represents skill (not talking about comp/class, op, etc here), with 6 rounds and issues mentioned by me.
Itâs a bad idea to implement ur solution and itâs a bad idea to have 6 rounds. Itâs impossible to have fair system here. The problem with beta is lack of players. As i said when it will go live, it is maaay be an issue with low mmr friend in team.
Letâs me be a bit more clear:
Low participation in soloq â my issues will go harder
Ur solution â it is about grinding cr and nothing else, equivalent is farming gold.
It shouldnt be bad if there will be players but Iâm doubt about it on high mmr (2.3k-2.4k, u can face same people over and over) and if game is awful, letâs say like right now on 2.1k mmr.
I wrote âyourâ referring to you as plural. Itâd be very repetitive if Iâd write combined a ton of times in the same post, was hoping I didnât need to clarify this too.
And yes, it does drag down your combined MMR when you queue with someone whoâs got much lower MMR than you.
As I said, the ultimate purpose of rating systems is to quantify ability. Or in other words âchance to winâ, relative to other participants. Those bad at the game would still lose rating in my suggestion, since theyâd eventually hit a rating where they canât win anymore. They just wouldnât lose as much per loss, which is the core issue with how theyâve copypasted the rating system from the regular queues and just made it so each round counts as 1 match.
Itâd still cause players to be placed in a ladder representative of their ability. It would just increase the roof by a lot. You do realise the roof is arbitrary and they can change it at will, right? The only thing relevant for the roof is the amount of people participating and how the matchmaking works. It doesnât need to be capped at 4k or whatever it is now, itâs unnescessary for a solo shuffle.
Ofc combined mmr is dropped and calculated as averaged of both players. What iâm saying is that if you are high cr and high mmr with low cr and low mmr friend, you will lose a lot of rating and receive 0 rating, that is almost the same what happened with the guy from screenshots.
It doesnt represent skill if you are negative win ratio (< 50%).
Also if it is a grinding system with negative win ratio itâll be hard to pass the roof with 20k cr for new players.
Right now if player is back at the end of the season it is even possible to push for number one of the ladder. With your system, if there will be lots of active players, it will be impossible.
Thatâs why I compared it with gold farming. People who had been started grinding earlier would have more gold than people who just started recently.
And again, it is not a bad idea to keep current bad system with 6 rounds. Idea with 6 rounds is bad itself.
Yes, it does. The meaning of your rating is always relative to every other participant. The numbers by themselves are meaningless. So when the system changes, people will still place where they belong eventually.
It does have more grinding, sure. But the deviation value will make the MMR fly higher much faster either way if you belong on a higher rating.
Guess what, Elo is a grinding system too if youâre gonna call that stuff a grinding system. Which is why the Glicko RD systems were created, to speed it up a bit with a deviation value and adjustments to accomodate that.
Are you even aware of why they went with this design in the first place?
MMR will be inflated as a result of giving free rating from wins/loses in your system. It wonât help people to climb faster unless devs decide to implement another workaround solution which might causes more issues.
Because, if convert current 2.1k-2.2k rating into soloq rating (iâm talking about amount of players and abilities of players) and possible lack of players, this 5/6 wins and -1cr issue will be huge. And itâll be even worse for higher players. No one will play soloq above certain rating.
Iâm trying to explain contradictions for all types of players in ranked match. It is impossible to satisfy every type of player (letâs dived for this example for low, medium and top). Half of medium and top players will face this issue. First of all, because of lower participation.
And to be just clear once more:
Forget about class/comp/spec etc, your solution provide an opportunity to climb bad players on high rating which shouldnt be the thing for âfairâ rating system.
Update : Holinka will fix the rating issue in Solo Ranked PvP :