It is literaly said by the Argent Crusade questgivers in Stratholme that they intend to purge/cleanse the city and make it their capital city, for their own nation.
Wether the Forsaken are/were misled or not, or wether the Argent Crusaders are righteous folks or not is no point in this matter, for all intents and purposes the Eastern Plaguelands is in Argent hands and is their own nation.
It would be absolutely ridiculous for the Argent Crusade to just give away Stratholme after all the blood they spilled to reclaim it for the living.
What’s next? The Argent Crusade should give all their towers, the Light’s Hope Chapel and Tyr’s Hand to the Forsaken too, because they were misled by Sylvanas and the Argents as “righteous” people should just hand it over for giggles?
Crusade Commander Eligor Dawnbringer says: Stratholme may take quite some time to be rebuilt and fully cleansed, but it is an effort I will take great pleasure in watching unfold. Perhaps one day we will see the next great defender of the Light armed in the Bastion of the Silver Hand, or ordained in Alonsus Chapel. No matter the outcome, our work here will bear great fruit one day.
To be fair, we don’t really know the state of both the Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring, as the Horde has Earthen Ring shaman fighting in their invasions and the Alliance has Cenarion Circle druids fighting for them.
I fail to see the Argent Crusade as nothing other than a neutral organisation that already has its own headquarters.
Its a faction made up by members of other nations, most of which have their own allegiance when out of it.
Even if they have indeed worked against a particular branch of evil, i still don’t see how would that in any way turn them into a nation of their own. Nor do i find evidence about them wanting to be considered such.
We indeed have cases about certain members proclaiming their preference regarding a specific outcome for their efforts.
But i don’t know how would the rest of the members (specially the Horde ones) see it if the circumstances reached a point where many of its former inhabitants came knocking at their house door.
Are they going to let Stormwind have a bigger sway over it, just because it has living, breathin Paladins?
He is undead too. And became instrumental in the lead-up quests towards the city.
Would they turn Alonsus Faol down if he proclaimed the Forsaken would inhabit the ruined city many of them inhabited in life?
I simply not see that mashing well with the values the Argents proclaim they have.
I don’t see how Leonid makes any difference, unless you wanted to point out that the he has absolutely no loyalty to the Horde or Forsaken?
I think they would turn him down, actually. Because purely using that logic, the Argent Crusade can better dissolve itself now as the Forsaken can claim to hold a claim to all of their cities and locations.
That i don’t see the Argents having any kind of bias against the undead, or the claims they might make regarding specific locations.
To simplify it, I just don’t see them making any kind of argument against the Forsaken moving into the city, given they already have their own settlements, and the overall facewash the race has had (and will have) with more moderate protagonist figures like Faol.
Well, given the main purpose of said order was to create a joint effort that defeated the Scourge remnants in the Plaguelands, i’d say that much like the Ebon Blade did in Cataclysm, yeah, they could indeed disolve itself.
Mind you, that’s not the same as asking them to hand over many of the settlements they currently hold. Hearthglen was ruled by Tirion and the Light’s Hope Chapel is the equivalent for the Moonglade in terms of being being a settlement destined exclusively for those of a certain creed.
Neither is something the Forsaken can take for their own, even if i would see logical for them to have some of their members populating either.
But Stratholme? In its lawless state? I do find it more logical as their new base.
But i again, i just can’t see why or how would the paladins turn down the civilians (regardless of their state) if these made a bid for repopulating their former lands now that the Scourge is gone.
Have Leonid or Alonsus vouch for them, and i’d say they are ready to go.
The people of Stratholme were massacred by Arthas, the undeads there moved in later. So there should be noone left who lived there before except the few inhabitants who were not there when Arthas “cleansed” the city.
And why would Faol speak for the forsaken, he repeatedly sais that he is not part of the forsaken.
Most of the Scourge remnants, were made up by inhabitants of all over Lordaeron. Including Stratholme.
Many of the bodies that roam the place, even if they were indeed killed by Arthas, were reanimated and used later by the Scourge. And many of those then created the Forsaken faction.
I don’t see it as unreasonable to have a sizeable chunk of the faction being former inhabitants of said land. Nor would i consider far fetched to have people from other territories having certain attachment to said city (even if they didn’t actually live there in life).
I’m talking hypothetically here.
Given his latest interactions with the Forsaken race, he obviously does not see them in a bad light.
And given a scenario where the Forsaken proclaim their need for said city, as alternative to a homeless/refugee state, i’d find it hard to believe he wouldn’t vouch for them.
In all, i do find Stratholme a more rounded and proper settlement for the faction. By both background and aesthetics.
I’m pretty sure, though not 100% certain, that the corpses were burned when Arthas burned down the city. But i can’t prove that would prevent raising. In addition many of the scourge we kill in Stratholme and the plague lands may be Inhabitants of Stratholme if they indeed were raised.
But my question still stands, why would they take Stratholme, when they have the superior positioned Andorhal under their controll and not in need of rebuilding.
Adding to that is the fact that i think a city built by forsaken, like the new Andorhal, could be a symbol for a new start, while taking another ruin from their old lives is just clinging to their former lives, without moving forward.
I’ll say that i’m not 100% in my assumption either, but going by several prominent NPCs that currently inhabit the place, clear references to Wc3 NPCs that died in the purge: https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=10808/timmy-the-cruel
It does seem as if the Scourge swooped in and took many of those that fell at Arthas hands.
I’d say its a mix of symbolism, infrastructure, and overall space.
Sure, Andorhal was in someway important, but still was under Stratholmes sway.
The city has a keep, walls, and holds a vantage position over the land it rules.
Besides the “logic” ingame reasons, Stratholme as a narrative element represents far better the overall legacy for the undead aesthetic, and has a more solid background, than a zone that to this day can be repeatedly skipped regardless of its importance.
The place, to put it simple, is just far more iconic.
Its like saying that NEs could move their people to Feathermoon Stronghold instead of Nordrassil.
Yes, they could for reasons similar as the ones you mentioned regarding Andorhal, but story-wise speaking it would be much less impactfull or relevant for the race from a writing perspective.
The symbolism is a negative in my books, the Forsaken should, after Sylvanas’ dead, finally move forward, instead of clinging to the ruins of their former lives.
They should build instead of take, and not continue to antagonize everyone around them out of spite and self hatred.
The rebuild Andorhal may be a former city as well, but it was never that important, and lacks the weight of history Stratholme has. So it’s a chance for a new start.
The position at the center of forsaken teretories, at a major crossroads leading to tarrens mill, Tirisfal and the plague lands as well as access to Water and place to expand are other mayor advantages for a new capitol.
Paving the way for the Alliance humans to claim Stratholme, then
Yeah, oke but this is not the case, they’re not homeless or refugees, the fact the inhabitents of Capital City fled to Orgrimmar does not mean the majority of Forsaken now live in Orgrimmar, especially considered they have all their old cities, towns and villages left spread around Lordaeron.
Also, Andorhal was one of the biggest cities in Lordaeron and is fully under Forsaken control.
I think this of Alterac City, it’s located smack in the middle of their territory, it has a pas that leads both north and south, meaning they can respond quickly, its defensible mountain terrain and its cold, preserving their bodies better.
Then this might be the key point that differentiates our take on the matter.
Because even if i do agree that after Sylvanas, the race could be in for a change, i’d say that renouncing to the Undercity and the lands that surround it, is already disruptive enough to create a differentiation.
And that there are certain aspects of the race, that need to be preserved in order to feed on the fantasy that created the factions appeal.
Yes, even if its only by “leeching” on other simbolic assets such as Stratholme.
If handled right, it could lean on the sort of “Now its inhabited again if only by a new branch of less evil undead” that balances appropriately the nostalgic and the renewed aspects that would come after Sylvanas departure.
Creating a new Undead Kingdom, that embraces in a less abrasive way what undeath means without going stupidly overboard with the likes of Calia nor renouncing to the Old School assets we had in the beginning.
But this is indeed my opinion and from your post, i understand you think differently.
I honestly forgot about Bilgewater Harbor. I was thinking going south from Orgrimmar would make more sense to expand because Durotar and Northern Barrens are horde territory. Aszhara is too since Cata but I figured alliance, or at least night elves, would not let horde expand into that zone because it is part of their past.
But sure, horde could expand into Azshara more.
This topic turned mostly in a ‘where do the forsaken go now’ thread and that’s not quite what I meant. I just flew to Andorhal to remind myself what exactly it looks like and a lot needs to be done to the place to make it inhabitable.
Lordaeron kingdom used to be alliance territory. For me it would make no sense alliance is going to let forsaken live there peacefully now with Sylvanas gone and the horde no longer fans of them.
Except Tyrande has already granted the Horde permission to keep Azshara as part of their territory as agreed upon per the peace treaty/armistice after Mists of Pandaria. However, since technically the Horde and Alliance are still at war due to the Darnassian and Gilnean refusal to sign the peace treaty, it could be that they will demand Azshara to be returned to the Alliance as part of a new treaty after the Banshee-Queen is dealt with.
But until that time the goblins are still free to deforest and change Azshara as they see fit.
Except the Alliance, honestly, has no say in the matter. Lordaeron is (was?) a core territory of the Forsaken Empire, and thus the New Horde, and will most likely remain in their hands. That is beside the fact that many Forsaken have lived in the city and surrounding area for decade(s?) now and many of the Forsaken are the deceased citizens of the Kingdom of Lordaeron too. At most the Alliance could demand the return and restoration of Southshore, Dun Garok and Gilneas but Lordaeron proper will remain in Forsaken control.
Since Blizzard refuses to update the ingame world with current lore, but Andorhal has been fully under Forsaken control since Cataclysm, when they murdered all the Alliance civilians and military in the Western plaguelands. I assume that in the four or five years since that the Forsaken have build up Andorhal entirelly to become a city comparable in size to its days in the Kingdom of Lordaeron.
I think it would make a lot of sense for Tyrande to come back on that generous gesture after Horde put the tree in flames and Sylvanas going mad (not necessarily in that order). But wow lore hasn’t made sense in a while now and old zones are barely touched upon so I guess it will simply stay in goblin’s hands…
It’s true that Lordaeron is basically core to Forsaken, but it wouldn’t have fallen in Horde’s hands if Alliance didn’t turn their backs on their former allies. Remember Sylvanas did first try to make contact with Alliance but was denied, most of her mercenaries not returning. That’s when she contacted Horde and Baine allowed her in.
Before Forsaken became that way, they were part of the human alliance and Lordaeron was a kingdom part of that alliance.
Calia is a long-lost-recently-returned heir to the throne of Lordaeron who has become a lightforged undead. She technically has the right to claim her kingdom back, I would say.
Rebuilding an entire city takes more than 4-5 years, especially when you need your workers available for war goals like spreading plagues and stuff.
Stratholme is not held by just any AC members. It is held by the Brotherhood of the Light, and I’m fairly certain they would rather die than surrender Stratholme to the Forsaken. They’re pretty much the uncorrupted version of the Scarlet Crusade, and are just as ruthless.
They’re terrible stewards. They let the city get infiltrated and overrun by a bunch of rabid undead critters and a team of comically inept pet battle villains.
Darkspear trolls were in Orgrimmar since Vanilla I always loved Valley of Spirits in Old Orgrimmar. In Cataclysm it was made to look like slums with Goblins polluting the stream.
I am not against Orgrimmar update, But I would rather if it kept Valley of Spirits, even if it would be something really small.
And if trolls are to be removed, then I’d rather for Echo Isles to get a proper revamp, as these islands aren’t equivalent to a city, it’s a 1-5 level starting zone. It doesn’t have any other functionality other than having boat to Zuldazar. Saying that trolls don’t need any bigger presence in Orgrimmar because they have islands means that Forsaken don’t need it either because they still have Deathkneel.
If Echo Isles would get some face lift and bank/ah/portal then such a shift would be welcome.
But as was mentioned before Orgrimmar is mainly orcish city and I am not sure that dilluting it with forsaken influence would be desired for orc fans.
As i said previously, doubt that the diluted current version of the Forsaken, that already counts with the seal of approval of the likes of Alonsus Faol, and probably may end up close to Calia’s lap, would in any way pose any sort of ideological dilemma to any AC offshoot.
The one that send players to help said folks is Leonid Bartholomew:
