I thought that was retconned? That the Titanforged came with the Keepers on Azeroth and that they literaly smashed from the heavens to battle the Black Empire.
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I saw many of them working just fine with the EB which were about as lenient with the usage of similar methods.
And i repeat, that i doubt even they would lift a finger against a faction that counts with the endorsement of the likes of Alonsus Faol (who already brought Turalyon to his knees weeping for forgiveness).
Let alone if Calia is brought to the equation too.
And regarding this bit:
I know that.
But it showcases that they aren’t all that racist against undeath itself.
Given a general overhaul of the faction (which seems to be Blizzard’s intention with the likes of Faol and Calia popping up, while those like Nathanos and Sylvanas are kicked out), i’ll repeat that i doubt any kind of AC offshoot would utter a word against the Forsaken as a whole.
And if the need arose, doubt again their paladin traits would stand in the way of a bunch of people expressing some need over a bunch of ruins.
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According to Chronicles: Volume 1, the titan-forged were created through the Forge of Wills, which was built in Ulduar, on Azeroth, using the planet’s own earth after the defeat of the Old Gods.
Quotes:
"The titan-forged were the armies crafted by the Pantheon from Azeroth’s crust to fight the Black Empire of the Old Gods".
The Forge of Wills;
" It was here that the various titan-forged were born, such as the stone troggs, earthen, mechagnomes, and the vrykul."
"After the Old Gods had been defeated, Prime Designate Odyn ordered the Forge of Wills’ construction. Built within Ulduar by Watchers Mimiron and Archaedas, it was intended to be used in helping shape the world, drawing on the energies of the cosmos to mature the Azeroth world-soul’s sentience. The Forge of Wills was also used to create the various titan-forged which would help the keepers to shape the world. However, the first design was too complex, resulting in the creation of malformed creatures such as the stone troggs. The watchers corrected their design and the next generation of titan-forged was the earthen."
Sources: Pg. 37-38 & pg. 60
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forge_of_Wills
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Titan-forged
Woah okay, the weird way you phrased this is quite the misleading remark on what actually happened.
Turalyon started weeping tears of joy when he realised the Holy Light still shone in his old friend and mentor, he wasn’t forced to cry or reduced to wimpering a sorry.
He thought his true friend was gone and in his stead existed an abomination. When the Light showed itself, he knew Alonsus was still there. His tears were relief, not humiliation at the hands of the Archbishop.
Source:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Turalyon#Before_the_Storm
And if we’re really arguing whether or not the Brotherhood of the Light would cede what they proclaimed as a resurgent bastion for the Light to the Forsaken I have to call the state of your lucidity into question.
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That’s a low blow man, he basicly gave Alonsus a BJ on the spot, but doesn’t consider Liadrin a real Paladin.
It really has nothing to do with racism in the end.
Eastern Plaguelands is, for all intents and purposes, land in the hands of the Argent Crusade (with factions like the Silver Hand and Brotherhood of Light serving under/with the Crusade) and it would be really weird if they would just hand over Stratholme to the Forsaken Empire.
Why would the Argent Crusade, or Brotherhood, hand over a city they could and want to use themselves? No matter what the likes of Alonsus Faol or Calia may say or demand.
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I wasn’t trying to imply that.
But the fact is, that Alonsus in his undead state of body and mind, one not so distant to that of the rest of Forsaken (as described in Before the Storm), didn’t dissuade the paragon of “Paladiness” in the least. And in fact, inspired in him the same respect (as archbishop and light-user) as he would’ve in life.
Given a situation where he vouched for the renewed Forsaken faction, something not so far fetched given his recent interactions with them, i’ll repeat again that i really doubt any AC offshoot would dare/want to argue against it.
To the renewed Forsaken faction that operates under the likes of Lillian, Faol, and probably Calia? After the body-washing Blizzard gave them that removed guys like Nathanos and Sylvanas out of the equation?
In the current state of affairs that has both factions largely singing along in Kumbaya?
Yeah, doubt a fraction of a largely accepting organisation that preaches about forgiveness, justice, and atonement would stand against a Forsaken plea to have a new home. Specially given their current state.
As i previously said, i doubt the Argent actions in the Plaguelands were about establishing a suitable land to claim for their own.
It was an effort against a very specific kind of evil. Much like CC having outposts over the planet doesn’t mean they want it for themselves.
In the end, those are all still Lordaeron lands.
And given the more moderate twist the Forsaken are probably going to get, i doubt the paladin principles of either of those groups, would allow them to stand in the way of the former inhabitants of said land, if they made a push for their “former homes”.
Both Hearthglen and Lights Hope Chapel would probably be “spared” from any sort of Forsaken claim, mainly because the former is already held by its “rightful” ruler (Fordring family), and the latter is more of a creed site akin to some church instead of some proper city/settlement.
This is all hypothetical of course. But in all, i doubt the reasons given, with the current scenario, would present any kind of noteworthy stopper for a possible development regarding a candidate for the Forsaken new capitol.
In reality, i doubt the Forsaken (or the NEs for that matter), get any relevant update in their capitol status for quite some time.
"What is the Brotherhood of the Light? Well…We are all members of the Argent Crusade at the core - members of the Argent Crusade that aren’t held in check by morals, guilt and useless human emotion.”
"We of the Brotherhood of the Light are not as lenient as our brethren when it comes to meting justice to those that would do this world wrong."
"The Brotherhood of the Light transcends the ability of any other group to eradicate affronts to the Light. We will take any actions necessary to rid the world of foul beasts like these undead. Nothing will stand in our way."
The big lol.
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And that is where you’re wrong I’m afraid. The Brotherhood of the Light would certainly not give any crap about what Calia says. It’s very unlikely they’d just let the undead have one of the former bastions of the Light.
And Leonid is part of the Argent Dawn/Crusade, not the Brotherhood of the Light.
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I still don’t understand how the conversation have to went without that it sounds extremely silly. “Oh Calia, how it seems there’s still much light in you which guides you. Sure, sure you can have back Stratholme which we tried to conquer since years. No biggie.”
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The difference bieng that the Cenarion Circle already had a core territory from which they were based (Moonglade and Hyjal), while the Argent Dawn (and later the Argent Crusade) had not.
Now that they have it, why should they give it up? Because the Forsaken ask nicely?
Yet, the Forsaken Empire is not the Kingdom of Lordaeron, yes those lands once belonged to the Kingdom of Lordaeron, but that nation fell apart and was divided into the Forsaken Empire, Undeath Scourge, Argent Dawn, Scarlet Crusade and the Alliance-controlled territories.
So the Argent Crusade has as much right to the Plaguelands (and Stratholme) as the Forsaken have.
Heh, I think the gnomes and trolls stand a bigger chance of having a fully developed capital city!
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And Faol? Because as things go right now, he seems to be more in touch with them.
Definitely more so than Calia.
Would the Brotherhood stand against the wishes of the archbishop that founded their creed? One that also counts with the approval of the last remaining original member of all their orders?
I doubt so. And I doubt the sway the Brotherhood may have in the organisation when Leonid already addresses them as “Meh, they at least get some results” (exaggerated but close).
Lights hope Chapel, and Hearthglen.
But whereas one is a militar branch of soldiers (who already have two prominent settlements under their control), the other is probably largely seen as a bunch of currently homeless bunch of haggard civilians in need.
I’m not really arguing about whether they should, and more about how they probably would allow the Forsaken to move into Stratholme.
Probably. But they may have already spent said bullet when Blizzard decided to create for both some starting zones on top of the territories that could’ve been used to create proper cities.
Hearthglen is only a recent addition, and was also close by to where the Forsaken decided throwing Blight and raising the death to live was a good plan.
Well, I don’t think we’ll actually agree on this since to me it would be absolutely ridiculous and weird for the Argent Crusade to “gift” Stratholme to the Forsaken, while for you it makes absolute sense.
Respectfully; why would long-time enemies of Forsaken suddenly change their mind about them with Sylvanas and Nathanos out of the equation?
(Part of) Forsaken still followed Sylvanas very recently and plagued Undercity when they couldn’t defend it from alliance. Sylvanas had the world tree put on fire.
What’s different this time? Years ago Forsaken broke free from the LIch King’s mind control and nobody would have it. Just recently the Forsaken Queen destroyed so much, what makes it so that alliance would even consider allowing Forsaken to exist? What would make it so that this time around alliance would show mercy to Forsaken?
It makes no sense to me at all that people are saying that Forsaken will be allowed to have Stratholme, or keep Andorhal, or keep and cleanse Undercity. Those used to be alliance territories.
And nobody has so far given me any insight as to why alliance would accept them this time around. And don’t give me that sorry excuse of Calia the lightforged undead. She is NOT Forsaken.
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The Alliance would allow be forced to accept them because:
High King Anduin Wrynn always sued for peace with the Forsaken, even with Sylvanas before the war.
High King Anduin Wrynn is responsible for the ressurection of Calia Menethil as a Lightforged Undeath, and is close friends with her, and acknowledges her as the true Queen of Lordaeron.
The Alliance is military unable to beat the Horde, as shown in the last Saurfang cinematics, the Horde Rebels and the Alliance together would not be enough to beat the New Horde, as such the Alliance will be forced to concede and allow the Forsaken Empire to survive as they are members of the Horde.
Because Blizzard’s intended message regarding the ending of BfA, is that Sylvanas is to be blamed for all that went wrong with the Forsaken.
And they are in fact, poor candid souls that were being mislead by a twisted psycho that used them.
Said message is reinforced throughout the war campaign with Lillian, with Calia’s dialogues, and in most of Before the Storm novel.
Having the good guys ignore the above, would mean they’d be “unjustly punishing” those that were only being mislead and manipulated…or at least, that would be the resulting message Blizzard would be giving.
Many things do not make sense here.
If we are to start talking about morals that cripple at random people in ways that make them act unreasonably, we could spend quite some time listing the examples for it.
It didn’t make sense for the Horde to sabotage its own war effort while hoping on some random act of kindness from the Alliance that halted them from taking advantage of it and crushing them completely.
It didn’t make sense of Baine to hand over the lone leverage they had in this war, that had just caused their newest allies to lose their ruler and have their city raided.
The story here isn’t contigent to some discernible real life logic. If it did, Saurfang would’ve waited for Sylvanas to crush the Alliance before revolting against her.
Baine would’ve been executed by Talanji or removed from his position as Tauren leader, as soon as he seemingly started putting his enemies well-fare above the one of his own allies.
But in a world that has been excessively twisted to fit in some moral lesson of cordiality and peace-mongering…yes, having the AC being naive enough to believe that the Forsaken are indeed completely redeemed because they rid themselves of Sylvanas and Nathanos, is exactly on tune with the modus Blizzard has.
Because the message regarding the Forsaken being redeemed or accepted by the Alliance has been signalled throughout several narrative instances.
And now the faction counts with the likes of Faol, Anduin’s pity/sympathy, and a new set of moderate/positive values that come by the hand of a new “batch” of undead characters such as Derek, Calia, and Lillian.
Because, lets be honest, even if i’m arguing for Stratholme simply because i do think its an iconic place that would give the Forsaken faction a proper home in a place soaked in history and symbolism beyond some rather unknown settlement (for the average folk) like Andorhal, there are already several of the moronic cliches Blizzard likes to throw around in their stories that facilitate the removal of the stoppers that prevented this from happening.
If Echo Isles would have some new art assets, inn, bank and portal at least then it would be enough for me. But truth is Blizz won’ spend resources on a content that won’t be used in some bigger scale.
Why does everything have to be a moralist tangent to you?
It’s a cheap “get out of argument I’m losing” straw man card you keep using.
In this case it’s about a good continuation for the Forsaken and Blizzard ignoring logic, coherence or consistency in some occasions shouldn’t really be a free pass for you to stop using your brain altogether, just because Blizzard doesn’t.
It’s increndible, we’ve got bad writing, that doesn’t mean we should aspire to remain on that level you’re digging your heels in.
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Don’t know about this “everything” you talk about.
But in this case, given we are to judge why would the AC may be willing to cede to an hypothetical claim over Stratholme by the Forsaken faction…then this kinda ties with the morality of the characters involved in the story.
Specifically, the one regarding how these paladins would treat someone marketed by Blizzard as manipulated, mistreated and forsaken.
A good continuation should warrant also a certain degree of fantasy appeal. Even if those are indeed some meta requirements, and even if they strain against the setting or need additional care to work.
Also yes, Blizzard’s stupid lecturing is a factor.
If the Forsaken are to get the bad out of a story that was literally created around demonising their previous traits, its only natural to expect (or at least allow) a certain amount of comeuppance from the state they are left in for forcefully playing their part as the Big Bad Wolf.
So yeah, if we are to take the “Sylvanas always was the Malificient that twisted them into their past cruel selves”, they might as well also take advantage of the “Poorly treated and fooled souls that have just now liberated themselves from said psycho” state they are left in.
And using the above to facilitate an appealing substitute for their loss, seems fine to me.
Also, just as we want Blizzard to create a more elaborated tale about NEs moving to Nordrassil/Hyjal instead of going to the more practical and realistic Feathermoon Stronghold, i also think that they should be facilitating the Forsaken story to populate Stratholme instead of a relatively unknown place such as Andorhal.
Well yes, because he’s undead and he wants the former Bastion of Light to basically be inhabited by the undead (he most likely doesn’t, but still), which is something I doubt even the Argent Crusade would stand for, let alone the Brotherhood of the Light.
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And why would that be an issue?
Don’t see Turalyon having any problem with Faol. Both Anduin and the rest of the Alliance seem now fine with the undead as worthy Light users.
And the AC agent that expressively leads players to work with the Brotherhood, is an undead too.
In all, nothing indicates that undeath itself is to be considered a deterrent, as we have a wide range of Light users (including the remaining founder of their faction), being Ok with it.
Would the Brotherhood “dare” stand against people because of a state that is already endorsed by the rest of the AC, the Alliance, the head of the Holy light Church, the King of Stormwind, and the highest ranking Paladin of the planet (and one of the founders of their order)?
Because I doubt that.
And yes, I do think that in an hypothetical scenario that had the Forsaken making some move for Stratholme, I do think Faol would vouch for them as he was already willing to in Before the Storm.
He was the one that operated within its church the most, and taking it again, and using his newfound condition to reform it in an adaptation of its former state, would present certain degree of appeal.