Was Sylvanas right ?

Lore Story
1

Hello Everyone.

Sorry for my third post today, but I have been away for a while and there’s some topics that have been going through my mind lately.

This topic refers to a “Good War” transcription. I am only starting to read but after reading many interpretations I found myself having a much different one when reading it.

Here’s the part that made me create this post:

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one. “I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”By the spirits, she is cold.

I was baffled to be honest.
She basically nailed in this sentences, everything that is usually discussed in the story forum.

If I was Saurfang probably I would find myself with 0 arguments to counter her.

So my question is: is she right on this subjects ?
If she is than, is it right to assume, by lore that peace is just a fouls dream ?

Thanks for your attention.
Cheers.

4 Likes
2

None of the Alliance high command seem like the sort to initiate a full blown war, and Anduin, who is peace loving to a fault, isn’t likely to die anytime soon. If she didn’t suddenly shank the tree, they’d still be on bad terms but likely wouldn’t escalate beyond a cold war.

5 Likes
3

No. I will repost my old statement from the old forums:

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away”

Who attacked Gilneas again? Who covered the entire nation in blight? Who dodged any retribution after Siege of Orgrimmar? Saurfang? Probably not. Me thinks someone’s worried about her own butt here.

“I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think its blasphemy that my people still hold their city.”

Luckily for you, Sylvanas, the living humans of Lordaeron are on the % of a statistical error, after YOUR genocidal campaign through Silverpine and Hillsbrad. Oh, you also hit Arathi, because why not.

“I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.”

Yeah, its not like the blood elves are the tenth generation of exiles and that Kael’thas worked great with Tyrande and Maiev. Its not like there’s literally no reason to start anything, as the TWO ARE ON DIFFERENT GODDDAMN CONTINENTS, and have no open disputes.

“I believe the Darkspear have not forgotten who has driven them from their Islands.”

Murlocs and a sea witch, coupled with low resources and FREAKING VOLCANO ACTIVITY?! WTF SYLVANAS?

"I believe every orc your age… (generic rant about human scraps and horrible treatment)

Yeah, mean humans, its not like you were demon-possessed. Also, Saurfang, let Sylvanas tell you how you should feel about your life. Not to mention Quel’Thalas paid for those camps too. As did Lordaeron, and we all know the Forsaken are from Lordaeron.

“I believe every human remembers the Terrible Horde, and I believe they blame every orc…”

I am glad you interviewed every human, Sylvanas.

“And I remember my Forsaken and I were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner…”

Newsflash Sylvanas. Quel’thalas wasn’t in the Alliance during the Scourge invasion, nor were they ever passionate about it to begin with. Another newsflash. In Vanilla wow, Stormwind literally has no outpost anywhere close to Tirisfal. Its the Forsaken who are aggressive.

Her entire speech is textbook manipulation and paranoia. It ain’t even lore correct on some parts.

21 Likes
4

No, Legion was already an amazing example with the various Orderhalls putting aside their differences to defeat a common threat. And from this so many connections were made which have just been thrown out of the window. People like Darius and Saurfang helping Horde and Alliance soldiers in the Warrior Orderhall, Malfurion and Hamuul working with the Horde and Alliance, all the various Elven groups coming together to fight for elf-kind as Rommath put and so many more examples. Tensions would no doubt rise and fall but peace wasn’t impossible, just peace with Sylvanas and anyone else who is as crazy as her.

Half of the reasons she has listed are over-exaggerated and used to manipulate or/and persuade that a war is needed in order for her own survival.

Genn, the Worgen and Humans have an issue with mainly Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Because she ordered the genocide of near enough all of them throughout the history of WoW. She caused her own enemies they will always want her head. Stormhein just proves that Sylvanas will never be safe and people will always despise her.

Blood Elven-Night Elven bad blood was just made up in WoW to further push the Blood Elves to the Horde, as there was no such thing in Warcraft 3 when Kael and Tyrande worked together and Tyrande almost sacrificed herself to save Kael and his people.

But even if we go along with it they are on the other side of the world in their own lands. They are in no position to fight each other nor would. It is hatred and anger, not some intent to kill.

Last time I checked the Darkspear were driven by the Sea Witch and the Murlocs, not the Humans. Secondly, at that time the Humans what were on that island were Kul’tiran, who weren’t part of the Alliance.

The Orcs tried to commit a planet-wide genocide of the Humans, Dwarves and HER OWN PEOPLE in an attempt to weaken the world up for a Burning Legion invasion. the imprisonment of their people is the kindest thing for the Orcs at the time given what has just happened.

And I find it even funnier/ironic that one of the reasons the High Elves left was cos of the imprisonment of the Orcs instead of just killing them all (I think one of the reasons, it may be little) she tended to forget that her people did this.

And while there is going to be some tension between Orcs and Humans they are on the other side of the planet to them for the most part. and Humans and Orcs got along together just fine all the way back in Warcraft 3 when Jaina and Thrall teamed up.

So no, half of her reasons just come across as BS really and just used to get into a war to save herself, or at least make herself a lot harder to get.

Also damn you Araphant, spent all this time writing this out just to get outdone by a copy-pasta xd.

4 Likes
5

Have it again, here.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17622543273?page=2#post-34

2 Likes
6

Damn, was it really that long ago?

2 Likes
7

We have grown old and bitter debating the same subjects.

5 Likes
8

Ye but they seem to just get worse and worse. It is becoming firsts for me to seeing people praise the WoT and saying it is an amazing story, pre-burning tree ofc’.

4 Likes
9

Thanks for providing the link Araphant, I will look on to it.

I just find it strange, that what she mentioned in that sentence keeps being brought up in discussions.

So I will ask another question:
Do you believe, based on observations of the story forum that a peace expansion where Horde and Alliance work together would be welcomed after BfA ?

Cheers.

2 Likes
10

I don’t know, but I can tell you this. Any expansion which starts with Sylvanas walking away without suffering repercussions or ends in further loss of Alliance territory will not be welcomed by us.

The Alliance had its fill of that in Cataclysm. Even now some people toss around scenarios where the Alliance has to give up on Arathi to get Ashenvale and Darkshore in turn. We trade what is ours for what is ours.

9 Likes
11

Sorry for so many questions, but if I remember correctly, she did predict, Anduin would make mistakes, because unlike his father he is not experienced.
She predicted that the Alliance would break apart as soon as Anduin would not be able to assist the Night Elfs.

Is it right to assume the failed frontal assault on the Undercity, (too many casualties, perhaps shown on lost honour cinematic: dead bodies on the harbour) and the fact that Tyrande is breaking apart from the Alliance as part of her plan ?

Because I keep seeing players praising her actions, where my human warrior would interpretate it as a sheep going to a wolf’s mouth.

Cheers.

12

He would. But luckily, we have a lot more commanders.

It did not, though. Genn went with Anduin’s blessing, night elves sacrificed their lives in Nazmir. The Alliance is firm as ever, thanks to the burning.

The Horde took very heavy losses there and she insulted and lost her top general.

Some people like her. Most side with her out of spite because Blizzard failed the Horde and is forcing a MOP recycle. Not to mention that Saurfang and Baine aren’t patriotic enough for a lot of the Horde.

6 Likes
13

Thank you Araphant and everyone who went to the trouble of replying a very old discussion it seems.

But I have to tell you (my mistake) that “her” isn’t Sylvanas, it’s Tyrande.

You already read many posts from Arctur about it. Taking the Night Elf hatred apart, isn’t she going for a trap, according to Sylvanas strategy ?
I mean she did predicted Tyrande would retaliate and this is where my human warrior would see a sheep going to the wolf’s mouth.
If everyone read a “Good War” why would anyone praise a foolish act ?
Cheers.

2 Likes
14

Because we too are sick of being forced into following Anduin’s mindset. As for Tyrande, she opened up a new warfront by herself, drawing Horde forces away from other places.

If we operate under the assumption the Alliance has superior numbers, this is a viable tactic.

Edit: will elaborate tomorrow, on phone, alas.

4 Likes
15

No problem.
I will look forward to it.

Funny thing: I don’t consider myself someone who likes to read books, but I don’t know why I love reading story forums.

Have a good night.

2 Likes
16

Hello Aster.

Don’t be sorry :heart:

I hope you had fun.

Share them.

Sorry, but I have a LOT of argument to counter her and I am going to share them with you.

She starts off proving that she is a moron. She wanted to attack Gilneas even without Garrosh’s orders and now she uses Gilnean desire for revenge to continue the bloodshed. She started it. Just surrender the Banshee Queen to the Alliance and be done with it. Anduin claims we fight Sylvanas, not the Horde.

The first thing Sylvanas did after reclaiming Capital City was MURDER all living Alliance soldiers that fought beside her and then she proceeded to annihilate every single living human being in Lordearon. She called them “infestation”. I think living Lordearonians might have a problem with that against which I find 0 arguments. Just surrender the Banshee Queen to the Alliance and be done with it.

Wrong on so many levels. Kaldorei accepted Highborne back. This fact itself (it was in Cataclysm!) proves Sylvanas utterly and absolutely wrong. Obviously, after Thalassians helped commit pimparoompoo against Kaldorei then NOW that divide will not be easily mended. But it happened AFTER Sylvanas said that.

And she did that! Just surrender the Banshee Queen to the Alliance and be done with it.

Oh and Kael and Tyrande worked just fine with each other. They had ZERO reservations. They got along marvelously.

Murlocs and a sea witch x)

Echo Isles? By the time it was obvious that trolls are allied to vile orcs?

Kul Tirans did, under order of Daelin. Daelin is dead and Kul Tirans are NOT part of the Alliance when she says that. She is WRONG again.

By the way, if Kul Tirans are to blame for seeking revenge for what orcs did back in the first and second war under order of now deceased leader, I have bad new for orcs. Unless of course, we deploy double standards :wink:

And I believe that every orc his age remembers being imprisoned INSTEAD of put down like a beast after they barged in, axes blazing into this world and sought to completely annihilate every single living being in the name of their demonic masters.

And this happened AFTER they comitted pimparoompoo against Draenei. Path of Glory rings a bell :wink: ?

And the best part? These camps were built and maintained by nowadays FORSAKEN x). Stormwind was a smouldering ruin by that time and had little to do with anything politically speaking… Did I mention that Quel’thalas wanted all orcs murdered?

This is a complete lie. By the time of the Scourge’s invasion, Quel’thalas seceded from the Alliance, leaving them to their fate. Neither she nor any other elf died for the Blue Banner.

They abandoned the Blue Banner and now she whines. She just looks for excuses to start a war. And these excuses are compeltely irrational AT BEST.

Sylvanas is lying, manipulating, twisting facts, deploying sick and abhorrent “logic”, she uses double standards. I am sorry Aster, I do not mean to demean your words in any way, shape or form. You are more than welcome to have your own opinions. To me though NOTHING Sylvanas says makes any sense in a bigger picture.

She talks about inevitable consequences of HER OWN actions, ignores the blame of the Horde, ignores the fact that Alliance has won a war once and SPARED the Horde, ignores the fact that the Alliance is led by Holy King Anduin who wants nothing but peace, ignores the fact that the Alliance has proven 3475827 times that they don’t want to destroy the Horde.

Basically, Sylvanas ignores established lore.

3 Likes
17

No, she is not right. Sure her speculations might sound convincing, but they are just speculations. Notice how she always begins her sentences by saying “I believe”, not “It’s clear” or “Obviously”. You don’t start a world war based on senseless speculation, plain and simple.

3 Likes
18

She is not. Her arguments are immensly hypocritical and ignorant. She is saying the Horde has to fight because the Alliance wants to, when the only reason the Alliance has to fight is because of Horde provocation. She is literally complaining that their actions have consequences. It is like striking someone in the face and then killing them because they might strike you back. That is the logic at work here.

She commited genocide against Gilneas, did nothing to repay the damages cause, and then has the gall to complain that they are angry with her.

The living humans of Lordaeron are practically gone thanks to her.

The Night Elves and Blood Elves have barely interacted in the last 10 000 years, and their first interaction was friendly. Their rivalry is in no way particularily more hateful than that of any other two races.

The Darkspear were driven from their islands by treachery with some involvement from the Kul Tirans and have now retaken it, unlike what she did with the Gilneans. She wants them to be angry at the Alliance because someone who is no longer part of their faction (largely as a result of their invason of Kalimdor) battacked them, and the Gilneans to forgive her. Massive hypocricy.

The orcs commited genocide against the humans. The least they could do is Accept that both races commited injustices against each other and let it go. All the human Kingdoms that held orcs prisoners are ruined anyway. There really is no one left to punish. Again, she tries to make the Horde angry at injustices perpetrated by the Allince, while complaining that the Alliance is angry at them.

The forsaken were no accepted because the Alliance knew nothing about them. All they knew was the Scourge. Sylvanas was at fault that her people died because of her own political incompetence.

Most of the issues she brings up can be solved by diplomacy. Helping the Gilneans rebuild their Kingdom and making an agreement of who can gold Lordaeron, but she uses these exact arguments to dismiss diplomacy outright. She is a hyporticial moron who refuses to accept responsibility for her actions.

3 Likes
19

Its a rather fine combination of the reasonings behind this war. A checklist if you will, from the Hordes point of view.

These are all enemy motives.
A set of reasons that don’t necessarily have to be about Alliance mistreatment or an unjust approach. They are just events that take notice about a whole set of reasons that would drive the Alliance forward in this war.

Gilneas is an obvious example. Its a driving motive in this war that will never be pardoned. The approach Sylvanas has here goes more towards the line of “We had this war against them in the past, and they’ll never forgive us for it. Might just finish it now and be done”.

Lordaeron and Darnassus appeal to a different set of ‘feelings’, regarding why this war should be ended on Horde terms.
The first one seems to be a call back to events that happened in Before the Storm, where writers emphasised an underlying sentiment about humans wanting to punish the Forsaken for simply being undead. We are given a perspective regarding this as both Alliance motivation and further down that same paragraph, as Horde (Forsaken) grudge.

And Darnassus is again highlighting what writers showcased of Night elves in Legion regarding both how they felt about Blood elves in Suramar’s campaign, and the reasoning Thalyssra used that had her decide to go to the Horde instead.
Emphasised with complementary characters such as Lorash.

These are all Horde motives.
Darkspear reference probably speaks about the human attacks during Wc3. Which goes to highlight the hatred Darkspear trolls have against humans (Vol’jin also references this in Shadows of the Horde).
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Riders_on_the_Storm_(WC3_demo)

The orc internment camps point at the known cruel practices that humans carried against orcs under the excuse of them being their prisoners.
Prisoner mistreatment is a rather serious offence IRL, but given orc mindset, i’d assume that hitting so close to slavery would be looked upon even worse.

And finally, back to the Forsaken prejudice. There have been several hints dropped in different narrative pieces regarding Forsaken hate. Ranging from Dark Mirror that had a human paladin going out his way to hunt Forsaken down, the diplomats that are mentioned in Chronicles, Before the Storm and how the general populace felt about Forsaken, etc.
Would this hatred devolve into actual violence against them? Probably.

From the Hordes point of view, a certain way to prevent that from ever happening is to win unconditionally.

Are these reasonings flawed? Surely. These are all from the Horde’s point of view.
These are skewed perceptions. Blatantly biased and selfish.
And focus first and foremost on the Horde faction.

Should they be considered invalid? Not really. These sort of reasonings have been used both IRL and ingame before.
These are understandable motives, as flawed as some might be.

There is no such thing as universal and objective validness for everyone when we have two factions with clashing motives regarding the welfare of their people.

Ambitious approaches that often entail having to kick an enemy while they are down, are the sort of realistic approaches by which the geopolitical landscape is built upon. Both ingame and IRL.

4 Likes
20

Funny.

I agree with Zarao :heart:

Her “reasons” are absolutely selfish and utterly ignore the bigger picture but it makes sense for the Horde to have a biased perception. Everyone tends to be subjective.

But from the objective point of view, as you could see, there are tons of flaws in her logic.

3 Likes