No one wants a frost mage in their m+ group. I spend lots of time to get in +17s and they are usually with the lowest rating players. I can see the reason bcs I’m nowhere around of a pally or shaman on overall. They just double my dps on 3-4 target pulls with 2 insta casts. I don’t have a team to play fire to make pulls specificly for my cds and push above 21 keys. I hope mages will be as good as they used to be on previous expansions because this class makes me feel like a beggar
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Idk, I have no problem getting into 18s now.
No issues getting in but it is really disheartening to see some specs with lesser or similar gear completing blitzing the meters on AoE with zero effort.
Had a ret pally earlier, his ST wasn’t that great but he was doing 90-150k dps on every multi-target pull.
It is crazy how crippled frost mage aoe is compared to almost every other class.
The other day I pugged something and a destruction warlock topped meters on raid trash. He sustained like 400k and top 1 spell was Rain of Fire. I just don’t get how can it literally do like 10 times the damage per ticks than our Blizzard do while the 2 spells are completely identical.
They could literally just double Blizzard’s base damage right now and it wouldn’t even change anything that is how bad it is.
Just tested on my alt warlock out of curiousity in valdrakken dummies.
My warlock 368 ilvl rain of fire ticks for 6k crits
My mage 424 ilvl with cds up with freezing rain blizzard 7k crits. There is over 50 ilvl difference between the 2 characters.
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Stop bashing on other specs tbh, first off fire mage works in m+ the only problem the group needs to work around it, secondly retribution has always been in the gutter, they are actually in a good place now and no they are not OP. Frost mage the same this spec is good if some people cannot play it that their problem.
And why do you think that that is an acceptable state for a spec to be in? As no other spec is entirely reliant on a group working around them to maximise their damage.
Who said they were OP? I was trying to point out how crap we are in comparison, they are far from the only spec that is blitzing the meters right now. I can attest to that personally with my Shaman, as well as encounters with the likes of Demon Hunters, Evokers and Warlocks.
It’s not terrible, but it’s not great either.
The overall theme of this thread is that there’s basically no reason to take a Mage over anyone else, we’ve got average to below average damage, basically no burst AoE and no hard CCs.
Our one excelling spec is only good on high keys and necessitates a group that pulls around its cooldowns (so you can’t really pug), while every other spec in game has no such limitations.
Considering the Top dps player on raider io right now is literally a Mage you are just wrong.
This is the 4th expansion with this to be the case.
Fire mage is the only spec in the whole GAME that has had routes SPECIFICALLY made around them.
There are many specs that could be way way stronger over the time that mythic + has existed but no other class has been played around.
Season 1 MDI 1 500 000dps on pack can you explain what has happened to completely remove that burst?
I personally do not think it is a good state to be in but making the claims that it is just flat out bad is just not a good idea.
If you are willing to change spec to the best one mage is not in a bad spot at all.
Sheep is a hard CC do you mean a true CC like sap where you are not put in combat because that is not many classes in the game that has at all.
They play frost and fire in those keys both specs are being played so this is just wrong.
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Making the claim that mage has no place in M+ is just plain wrong.
Wrong destruction lock gains alot if the group works around them also, frost mages, unholy dk. So more specs.
Every spec ingame has somekind of limitations, not only mages.
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I overall agree with what ur saying, i will say though there are defintly classes youd take a mage over.
DPS warriors DHs and monks to name a few, BL by nature will make u a better choice then several options
Lets hope the rework on mages does the class some justice though, its functionality hss defintly struggled in pugs with current design due to flaws uve mentioned
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Mage is the squishiest dps class that dies the most. All other DPS classes have much better self-healing and survivability. Our DPS requires a special pull pattern, mobs should live long enough to complete all rotations, pulls should be big enough, and the cds should be ready for the next big pull, if something interrupts our rotation the dps is ruined and we have to wait for another couple of minutes for Arcane Surge or Combustion. We are not welcomed or wanted in M+ groups anymore. Groups prefer shamans, evokers, or hunters that can also bring in the BL, do more DPS with less effort, and don’t die as often as we do. As an Arcane mage, I have to spend too much time evocating and making gems while others dps at that time and get ahead of you… No other DPS class has to spend so much time being inactive just to get a small dps buff… Mage is only viable at premade groups that have SP that PIs you and tank basing his pulls around your CDs… With pugs, its mostly a terrible experience, and i forgot when last time I topped the dps meter executing all rotations correctly, playing smart, and doing minimum mistakes. THANK YOU BLIZZARD FOR RUINING THIS CLASS!
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That is the case. How many pugs are working around mage? Maybe in 20+ keys with SP etc. or premade but definitely not random pugs in keys < 18. It shouldn’t be like that.
Shamans, Evokers, Hunters all of them can bring in BL and are better options than a Mage!
You can drums as well of course not as good as BL itself but if the replacement does triple your aoe dps it makes up for it or brings something else to the table like healhtstones or something.
I would disagree heavily.
Hunter is a dead slot, does less damage, and carries less utility then mage.
Shamsns melee or a dead slot, and with the abundence of melee id really disagree with it being automatically a better choice.
As i said. Mage isnt perfect, and i hope the rework due does fix the flaws laying around in the specc, but arcsne mage can output some serious Dps while providing CC poly for several affixes and a 40 yard caster in a time of saturization of melee dps.
Mage can be a very good pick. Arcane is doing exceptional when played well. Fire is iffy in pugs and drfintly needs reworking into a more flexible option and frosts AoE is in severe need of help ofcourse. I wouldnt say theyre a bad choice tho.
But maybe thats bexause currently u can rely on the mages applying being die hard mage mains who stuck it through and generally know the class very well.
Id disagree, espically with how high arcane is ranking in m+ currently also, its a strong specc.
Yes mage has flaws but it can still be a powerhouse. But hopefully its rework will sort some of those flaws out however as it currently has alot of unfun mechanics. RoP being a big one.
You don’t understand it is a powerhouse if the conditions are met. In a typical LFG pug, these conditions are usually not met and the mage dps suffers a lot even if you put too much effort with minimum mistakes. It is like your dps depends on others instead of your own actions! Blizz made mage a premade class that performs poorly in random pugs. Seeing the self-healing of warriors, dh, dks, retris, while the healer cant keep you alive when you are not being one shotted makes me cry. As a result, you die a few times during the Arcane Surge or Combustion and you lose a lot of dps.
This is not true. Hunters due to better survivability can do more dps in total than a mage. Less utility? They also have BL. They dont need to evocate or create gems every second pull. They are faster than mages. They don’t need to cast when almost every encounter forces you to move constantly. They don’t have complicated rotations.
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If that was the case most groups would not write a note “Shaman or Evoker”. I don’t remember the last time any group wanted particulary a mage.
My comment did mention the flaws
They have one defensive which completely removed their dps, and another which demands a tank pet present.
Eeh. Ive seen many arcane mages do alot more dmg then hunters, and logs do kinda back that up.
Yes, BL isnt the only form of utility.
Mages have far more access to CC, int buff, food etc etc.
This isnt rly a factor. Difficulty is a option, not a balancing order and no mmorpg would balance their game based on difficulty.
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If that was the case most groups would not write a note “Shaman or Evoker
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Ive not seen any groups demanding this personally but im sure they do exist, but tbh several times have we seen, when player perceptions down, its irrelevant to the classes potiental.
My point isnt stating mage is fine, we know theres been problems. We have either given up, or persisted on screaming througu the whole way.
Fire most defintly is not workable in most pugs, arcane and frost do have a easier time with this then fire, but arcane is yes very complex to play to really get its rewards and requires mapping out
Hebce why most dip into frost for its simplicity, i will imagine its rework will fix this however, as the reworks so far have dumbed classes down ALOT.
Who needs food and CC nowadays? 
Other classes bring also buffs.
With afflicted, spiteful, incoperal, its fairly good, ask warriors whove been basically binned because they cant deal with the affixs on that one.
Also, DH tank kiting on huge pulls its defintly great for.
And they do, the differenxe is many classes can fill those buffs in a tank or healer role, a mage u have to take a dps slot for.
As i say, hopefully the rework bins the unfun mechanics, and gets them in a state where its easier to use in a pug enviroment.
Just hope its not a ret pally rework, where all ur speccs work off 2 buttons 
blizzard