Death runs weren’t fun either 
it’s quite literally a response to our behavior, as with most things they changed or introduced.
You just convinced me why it’s a good idea
no you dont get it. you wont have any adrenaline rush, you wont see your class doing good dps. you will not pump/
what will happen is probably you will wait for bloodlust for each dangerous pull and cooldowns so you can safely complete the key.and if a key takes 2-4 hours to complete , then you gonna come here and cry that ur busy life doesnt allow you to participate in keys that take 4 hours.
overall its a terrible idea. terrible terrible. DF season 3 had the perfect key system , with easy dungeons that became hard for those who wanted challenge on the higher levels.
if this happens i ll abandon m+ altogether and only raid log. Imagine the try hards pullling pack by pack or even ccing so people not die. then chain cc the mob till your defensives are up so you dont die by mistake from a targeted ability or till your defensives come back up. every other pull that is unavoidable and features a miniboss ( example necrotic wake ) you will wait for bloodlust. each boss bloodlust ( imagine necrotic wake you just did third boss and you wait another 10 minutes for bloodlust to secure victory ) .
my god what kind of dark days are upon us? is blizzard that incapable?
Remove peril
remove cc changes - allow big pulls
nerf dungeons to similar df s3 levels
buff tanks
remove this atrocious crest req system and just have loot be loot and decrease the ilvl disparity between heroic and mythic to 6-7 ilvls
rework classes that suck and balance the game
There you go . perfect m+ season for everyone .
Oh and have an interesting kiss/curse affix that changes every season .
2 Likes
So… just like with raids?
This entire discussion is about a range of keys above the maximum the game is balanced around and above the range of the maximum rewards. Asking for changes to a non-supported part of the game, changes that will actually also have drastic influence on how the supported part of the game also plays, is not just extremely egoistical, it’s outright stupid.
This is the exact same situation as people asking for PvP to be balanced around dueling outside Orgrimmar/Stormwind
what do you mean by supported and non supported? do you actually realise how ticidio that sounds?
m+ is infinitely scaling, what do you mean not supported? so a +10 is <> but an 11 is not? then why does it exist?
no thats not the entire discussion. you ask for changes that you dont realise the magnitude of bad that they will be.
This season everyone asked for no affixes etc etc. but NOONE asked for all these bad changes that came along with them. NOONE asked for bad class balance or cc changes or tank nerfs or challengers peril or anything.
The fix to m+ is right there , not even hiding , its in plain sight with a huge notice board above its head saying HEY IM THE FIX < IM HERE IM THE FIX >
yet here we are discussing that the timer is the fault and we want death counts. my god
Ok, the word “supported” was indeed miused, and I apologize for that. I should have said “balanced around”.
Game balance is for M+2 up to M+10 (and for raiding from LFR up to and including Mythic but this is not the scope of this discussion). Whatever class balance looks like at +11 and above, whatever problems players encounter there and whatever degenerate playstyles and behaviours emerge there, should not be of concern to the developers and to other players unless those problems have an influence on the part of the game that balance is taking place for. Requesting for changes to the whole system from +2 up to +10 to make the experience of players more enjoyable for +11 and above should not be the target of the developers. If they decide to add rewards to those difficulties, then they should.
Class balance this season is among the best out of any season so far. Just because it’s not the best historical does not make it bad. We have had seasons where the difference between best and worst dps specs was more than 30% and seasons where no healer except Discipline Priest was viable.
Tank nerfs have been asked by the general healing community since late Dragonflight due to the adverse effect it has on the healing playstyle. The issue here is that this was asked with a combined nerf to incoming burst/spike damage. The latter was never implemented.
Assuming they have them to lose
I don’t know blizzard always tries to come with idiotic solutions to problems that they created 
class balance has been bad , in raids , in pvp and in m+ , from poor numbers tuning to bugs to what not. Note that currently Demonhunter dps spec is doing less single target damage that the support spec , just to give you an idea of how terribly balanced classes are. a quick look at logs with tell you all you need to know, you can also switch between patches to see the actual magnitude of imbalance.
this never happened.
Now let me tell you why what you think ( that blizzard catering to high end players ) is bad but also let me tell you why these high end players never asked for whats going on here.
High end players provide through their end-game content , entairtainment and something to look upon , even though you will never reach those bleeding edge keys, you get excited seeing their massive damage or big pulls or super progress in raids. They are also the main reason that communities and discords and what not make guides and support the guides and provide help to newer or inexperienced players. without people that play on a high end level, you wouldnt know what buttons to press etc etc. i hope you get the point otherwise i will elaborate more .
Furthermore, we had a great m+ season in df s3 , literally everyone loved it and most guilds had people playing their alts and doing runs because it was fun.
With TWW beta and the announced changes to m+ , it was almost perfect, BUT they decided to make the CC changes ( and have anti-fun anti big pull mechanics , ex ara akara scarablords with aoe% debuff ) .
THose cc changes wont be felt by high end players as its proven time and time again, but the vast majority of the playerbase will find that terrible. Because they cannot communicate in pugs, they dont have the mechanical experitise to do it also , they are not rotation gods or cant execute at the high end. Those cc changes will hamper the gameplay in the low levels , making keys uncessesarily diffucult and obnoxius and honestly anti - fun. everyone wants to pull big and blast thats the most fun parts of m+ . Your cd is coming up and yoou feel you gonna nuke the world, the healer is also pumped , the tank has red sparks in his eyes ready to become a tank god and tank massive amounts of trash. guess what? NOPE a big middle finger by blizzard with these CC changes because you will get overrun because of infinite casts that recast time and time again.
Lets take a look also at class imbalance and why balancing the game at the top level is extremely important . Whatever happens at the high echelons of m+ or raiding reverberates down. Sure all classes can complete heroic or m+ low keys BUT community will always choose the path of least resistance while increasing their percentage of succesfully timing the key. sure bring an affliction warlock that is inexperienced and will be dead last below aug evoker in boss damage but why do that when you can bring enha shaman who just presses 3 buttons and annihilates half the dungeon with the boss included? It creates both ways problems,both at the high end but also at the low end. it makes playing your beloved main pointless as your chances to get invited are diminished, even though you scream in agony that u can do a +10 and get that juicy vault. it doesnt matter because the other class is better in every way . and the less the classes are played on high end the less will be played in the low end because people will always follow whats going on at better levels.
and lastly the tank nerfs , noone asked that. its a difference that the tank is slowly bleeding into dying at low levels and needs a healer to get his life back up , and just getting oneshotted at a +6 or 7 , let alone +10. noone asked for survivability nerfs. sure make their healing low , or as low as needed for a healer to notice . but not mitigation and passive sustain , that is a crime
Edit: to add a last point, Seriously tone down the number of casts/tank busters and nerf dungeons in general. this is very very obnoxious and not fun . that is also a pain point , that dungeons are uneccesarily overcomplex and hard
Sounds like a nightmare just like my inner dialogue that is based on what if and delusional realities dragging me further and further into depression, go address the social aspect of the game, because this game is very toxic these days, part of it is because its setup in such ways to encourage toxicity rather then to encourage people to be nice.
Keep the timer, but ONLY use it for leaderboards (WoW website + RIO).
So people that like to push keys to get higher on leaderboards, can still have their E-go fix.
For those that like high level keys pushing, they can still find people with high RIO scores that have the same mindset as you.
For those that don’t like high level key pushing but just want the rewards from finishing a M+ they can find people that have the same mindset.
Just add a few easy to see buttons/filters in the groupfinder:
- Casual run
- Push run
Or something similar that makes it clear what kind of people you’re looking for.
The only people being negative about this suggestion are gatekeepers, and people that already filter out the people they don’t like playing with by using minimum M+/RIO scores.
Those that complain with comments such as: ‘I don’t want to be in an endless run!’ already filtered out 90%+ of the people that want to do it casually and for the other 10%, you have means of communication, do you not?
It takes just a single question ‘Casual or Push?’ to filter out the people with opposing mindsets.
1 Like
The problem with this distinction is that there will be people who will avoid casual runs out of worry that they will have “inferior” groups that will struggle to even clear.
Imho the timer should be purely for the e-peen comparisons of people doing keys beyond what is needed for keystone master.
There are already Standard and Completion. I don’t see your post accounting for what determines if a key gets upgraded or not.
Based on amount of deaths I would say?
0-8 Deaths = +3
9-12 Deaths = +2
13-15 Deaths = +1
16+ Deaths = ‘Deplete’
Or something along those lines, not sure how many deaths are currently allowed to deplete a key from +3.
They could, but I prefer a world where deathless is capped in its own way (as M+ timed is). To stop true degeneracy that would happen and would cause burnout.
To a certain degree I believe that players must be protected from their own instincts and drives.
Having it as two systems that co-exist in parallell is quite perfect. As it allows fluid movement of players between them. Both with different end-goals. Yet with the same reward structure.
Choice is always great!
Why not have a timer to complete each boss in a dungeon. If you kill the boss in time you get an extended timer to the next boss and so forth.
They can simplify mechanics and allow big pulls so dps can blast.
Each boss you kill drops a token you can put towards a piece of gear you want. This way even if you dont complete the dungeon and say brick the key on boss 2 you come away with something. (Bosses cant drop specific gear as people will leave like in m0 so token is better).
If you fail the timer to say boss one the dungeon is over and you reset. This way nobody is held hostage and nobodys time is wasted.
Very rare but ive seen 10+ complete with 20+ deaths
The ranges are the amount of deaths allowed to achieve +3 / +2 or +1 on your key.
Obviously this can be tweaked, these ranges are maybe far too rigid or okay depending on who you ask.
1 Like
I never understood this “timer-o phobia” some people have.
Nobody and I repeat absolutely nobody is preventing anyone just sitting in m+ beyond the timer. Get 4 like-minded folks and sit in Siege of Borallus for 5 hours for all I care. ITs not like the the timer will eject you out once you run of time.
Had many guild/community runs where people where pretty much forthcoming that they are low geared/low experienced and we decided to help them out. Sure I spent like 90 mins in NW10 but we were laughing most of the time on discord anyway so I didn’t even paid much attention to the timer.
3 Likes
There needs to be something betwen +1 and Deplete, and the obvious answer is “Keep the key level the same, change the dungeon”. Generally, the idea of the game telling a player (or a group of players) that they are good enough for this difficulty but not yet ready for the next one would possibly improve the situation
I can see players finding an exploit where it is optimal to run a dungeon up to a specific boss and then stop the run and exit. It adds unnecessary balancing burden on the developers.
For me it’s not a “timer-o phobia”, but the constant no-pause playstyle of M+. If you told me that the timer remains but the gameplay enforces downtime, like we had up to WotLK with mana breaks, I’d prefer it.